Author Topic: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion  (Read 12420 times)

jo1973

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2011, 11:17:53 PM »
Ok, so this morning I checked my camemberts which I have been keeping in a container in the normal fridge as I don't have a cheese cave yet  :-\ , they had grown the white bloom back, and no new blue mould had resurfaced, and they smell like a nice camembert, so I wrapped them and have put them back in the fridge.  I made these on the 19th of March, so was just wondering whether they are still ok to eat as I am dying to taste them.  I will age them for a couple of weeks before tasting though. 

BTW love the topics up for discussion.  Very informative for us newbies, and love it when people add pics, hopefully will be adding my own pics soon.

jo1973

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2011, 02:09:20 AM »
thanks, they were in a plastic box, but are now wrapped, and lookin' good.

iratherfly

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2011, 07:00:39 AM »
Maturation time is usually 6-8 weeks

What??? In 6-8 weeks they will be an ammonia factory. 21 days. 24 maximum!

jo1973 - If they are in plastic in the fridge and you leave a little gap for air so you get 85%-90% relative humidity going into the box, there is no need wrapping them. In fact you may just suffocate and ammoniate your rind before the paste is ripe. Instead, use the traditional french tab/rub method. It works better anyway.

jo1973

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2011, 08:19:12 AM »
ok, let me get this right, so i don't muck them up.  I should upwrap them and put them back in my plastic box, and leave for how long?  Do you think they sound like they are still ok to eat?  At the moment they look and smell really good.

Tomer1

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2011, 11:34:45 AM »
Just gently press them, when they feel soft enough EAT!
I prefer keeping them in their box instead of wraping just so that it doesnt get squashed by something\someone in the regular fridge during its "gental stage".

jo1973

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2011, 04:59:44 AM »
I checked them today, and two are softer than the others, and lookin' great.  I have a separate cheese section in the door of my fridge, so they are in there. 

How long is the "gentle" stage or does it depend on lots of things?  I guess it's all just practice, ay?

But I am pleased to see that my first camemeberts may be a success, considering I thought I had wrecked them. 

iratherfly

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2011, 07:41:01 AM »
Wait, wait, wait. You don't just eat them because they are soft. If they are soft before they are about 3 weeks old it is likely that the outside had ripened too fast and the inside is not nearly ready.  If they are getting soft prematurely, reduce humidity and move them to an even cooler storage. This way you prevent ammoniation while you still let the enzymes do their work deep inside the cheese.

Think of it as cooking in heat setting that is too high.  You will burn your chicken (or whatever) on the outside before the inside gets cooked.  If it looks like it is browning before time you don't eat the raw chicken... you reduce the flame and let it cook a bit longer in a temp that won't continue burning the outside.

The softening and over ripening may also have something to do with the wrapping. It often does that.  Instead, the technique is to keep them in the aging container (together, where they can cross-transfer mold to each other; cheese love friends!). Once every day or two clean your hands and pick up a cheese, Tap it and lightly with two fingers to "pack it" rub it to help the bacteria transfer evenly on the rind and help create a lower height bloom of finer, more dense rind which is a very desirable quality.  With your hands full of bacteria from that cheese, move on to the next and continue until all cheeses are done.

When this cheese has properly aged its softness should be the same as pressing the ball of your eye or the base of your thumb.  Here's a good clip that has been shown on quite a few threads on this site, showing how to choose a Camembert and know it's ripe. It's very accurate:
How to Choose Camembert - CHOW

matnewman

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2011, 06:15:03 PM »
Does this turn and pat apply to Brie as well?

My first brie was on a cheese mat (one of those plastic grid things) in a box - it got a lovely mould on top and sides but the bottom was too moist.  I flipped it, and now have a lovely growth on the (new) top but the bottom has got a bit soggy again and some green/blue mould has grown.  So I've removed the green bits and now wrapped it in some baking parchment (aka greeseproof paper) since I wasn't sure what to wrap it in and clingfilm seemed it wouldn't let it breath at all.

What do you stand your white-mould cheeses on to get an even cover?

mtncheesemaker

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2011, 08:42:23 PM »
Matnewman, here's a post about aging boxes that Sailor made a while back. I use a couple of pieces of the "eggcrate" with a cheese mat on top, to allow air circulation and to keep the cheese out of the whey.
Yoav, how do you get a camembert ripe all the way through in such a short time? Mine are never completely ready before 6 or even 8 weeks. I like the paste to be evenly ripe without a firm core.
Thanks,
Pam

iratherfly

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2011, 07:27:09 PM »
matnewman - It seems like your surface is not proper for aging on it. The cheese needs to be set on an open mesh cheese mat, which needs to be set atop a surface that is elevated beyond the bottom of the aging container.  In other words; free air flow to the bottom of the cheese, free flow of drained whey to the bottom of the container (or drying in the air) and having the cheese NEVER sit in its own whey or moisture.   I do a very traditional French method: Instead of draining mat on a platform, I use mats of straw that I get from a local affineur. They wick out moisture and help the mold grow. They also give the cheese rich grassy aroma and a bit of color.

As for the pat and turn technique, the only thing I would watch out for in a brie is that fact that it is so flat and relatively thin so it may break when you flip it, but you can just tap it and rub it, turn and do the other side, then rub your fingers on the circumference of the cheese.

Pam - Typical Camembert should only take 3 weeks to get to age, however some Bries have neem known to be aged far longer. To adjust it for longer aging I would cut the curd smaller and age it in colder temperature.  To make it shorter I dry the cheese for a couple of days first and age it at 55F for the first 10 to 14 days before moving it to the colder refrigeration. I do not wrap it.  Selection of the right PC and Geo may help it too. Some are more agressive than others and they go well beyond rind formation; they are actually responsible to the lipolysis and proteolysis processes (breakdown and modification of proteins and fats) which is what makes the cheese ripe.  What's your recipe? Let's see if we can do a 3 week version out of it. Can you post it here?

mtncheesemaker

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2011, 08:31:50 PM »
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2647.msg22283.html#msg22283Here is my recipe. Thanks for checking it out. I'm curious which Geo and PC you use.
(Your fans are waiting for pics!)

iratherfly

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2011, 09:55:04 PM »
I am surprised, your recipe said 3-4 week aging on it so I don't see the problem.  My recipe is quite close. I run the milk at 86F and for 2g I put slightly more than 1/8 tsp (I add another 1/16tsp) PC. I used to put equal amount of geo but now I put less (especially when it seems geo is very alive in my cave). I turn the cheese from day one (not waiting for a bloom to do that).  I don't put a cover on it while draining (just some mesh to protect it from flies and dust).

The only MAJOR difference that I see is that I don't do the wrapping.  Frankly, I don't know who came up with that idea.  Wrapping is what you do when this cheese is ready to be sold and shipped to markets... It's not an aging environment. While in theory it is supposed to reduce the amount of air exchange and trap humidity and microorganisms close to the surface, in reality it makes the cheese ammoniate faster and ripen on the outside well before the inside is ready. It causes PC to recede and Geo to overgrow; it suffocates the cheese.  The only way I see to age this for 6 weeks is to do it in very cold temperatures early on, or do a very dry cheese (small curd cutting, long drainage).  What am I missing here?

I am working on getting some of those promised photos up!

linuxboy

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2011, 10:10:00 PM »
Quote
Frankly, I don't know who came up with that idea.
Standard for commercial stabilized, UF, and partially stabilized cheese, because they're wrapped and shipped on day 10. In small scales, IMHO it's not necessary, just like you said.

iratherfly

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2011, 11:06:35 PM »
In Camembert de Normandie (AOC) they don't wrap it for shipping until they are at least two weeks old.

Anyway, Pam I forgot to answer the PC/Geo question you had; I usually use Geo 15 or 17 and PC VS. In some occasion I use the more aggressive PC Neige. Gives me a nice wrinkly rind if I use it in combination with Geo 17 under the right initial drying/salting conditions.

Tomer1

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Re: P candidum - Bloom & Ripening Discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2011, 12:41:42 AM »
So how do they keep it from becoming overipe?
near freezing temprature?