Beaufort Trials - Experimental Design. Input, Please

[Tomer1]

How does the releativly low salt content effect this specific type of cheese ?

[ArnaudForestier]

Actually, tomer, if you'll check the propionic part of my reply to Yoav, you'll see that among the alpine makes, it's the highest salt content.  This makes sense - you are, basically, retarding the p. shermanii effect in Beaufort - don't want the large eyes (caused by CO2 generation), for one.  So, unlike Emmental (large eyes, salt content low, leading to a very active propionic metabolism), Beaufort is high salt - 8-13 g/kg for the Beaufort v. 3-6 for the Emmental.

This, by the way, Yoav, if you're still with the thread, is what leads me to question your suggestion to really hit heavy on the propionic dosage, 12x-18X the starting point generated by Sailor's recipe.  I wouldn't likely hit that for Emmental, much less for Beaufort.

[Sailor Con Queso]

Beaufort is sometimes called the "King of Gruyeres" so I manage mine as if it were a Gruyere. I prefer a stronger "Swiss" flavor from the propionic acid and other byproducts, so I do not overdo the salt. Increasing the P. shermanii dosage and then retarding growth with salt doesn't make too much sense to me.

As LB has pointed out in other threads, P. shermanii does grow and produce the same byproducts at lower temperatures, but more slowly. I like to give my Beauforts and Gruyeres 3 weeks in the cave and jump start the bacteria with just 24 hours at room temp. This gives the P. shermanii a metabolic boost with little or no CO2 production. This is non-traditional, but I like the results.

[ArnaudForestier]

Beaufort is sometimes called the "King of Gruyère "

You're creating a revolution.  It's actually called "Prince of Gruyères".   

It is a Gruyère , much like Comté is also known as Gruyère de Comté.  However, it's important to me, at least, to make sure I honor the differences, as they do have them; salinity alone, for example - Comté, 4-10, Beaufort, 8-13 g/kg.  Propionic acid, Comté 1-4 g/kg, Beaufort - as I mentioned earlier, I find this striking, at least - a mere 0.05-0.2.  Very indicative, to me, of one very key part of Beaufort's nature, relative to its Savoie and Franche-Comté kin.

...jump start the bacteria with just 24 hours at room temp. This gives the P. shermanii a metabolic boost with little or no CO2 production. This is non-traditional, but I like the results.

Actually, I believe it's quite traditional, Sailor, as I've seen this in many French materials.  The AOC material from Polytechnique Lille I've been citing a good deal mentions, for instance, indicates a 24 press.  "Pressage mécanique pendant 24 h."  The Beaufort AOC corroborates:

Il est pressé pendant 20 heures, période durant laquelle on le retourne régulièrement.

Saumurage
Après 24 heures de repos, le fromage est plongé dans un bain de saumure qui assure un premier salage.

So, quite traditional, a 20-24 hour press, followed by 24 hours resting at room temp. 

I have always perceived this period - which to me, seemed extraordinary - as being about a long, slow decline to proper pH levels, before salting; at which time further decline was halted by "saumurage."   

I know that if I gave anywhere near to this extended a warm-rest period, my cheese would be out of whack, way too low a pH - and that's with my relatively low SLAB inoculations, mentioned throughout these threads.  Prior to reading Pav's comment (see below), one of the reasons I thought to forego ST altogether, to be honest, in my thermo blend, was simply, to slow my make and drain acidification curves way the heck down. 

Now - if I hear you right, Sailor, you're saying this long warm rest is to give the benefits of prop. metabolism and lysis, while forestalling CO2; a good thing, so this would justify the lengthy resting period.  That's interesting.

On the other hand, I bagged on the notion of trying for ths lengthy period as a basically needless slavery to tradition (I distinguish needless from useful "slavery to tradition!), when I read Pav's comment:

I don't see a reason to wait 16-24 hrs for the acidity to drop enough to where you can salt. That's a huge window of exposure for coliforms and other unwanted flora to multiply.

So, interesting.  Hope this generates some more discussion.  As this thread is about the concept of experiment design, trials for cheeses, perhaps it could be continued specifically in the thread I earlier created on just this topic, "Propionic in a Gruyère, without a warming period?"  Pav, I know you posted there, don't know if you want to continue or not, or continue here or there, if so).

[Sailor Con Queso]

The 24 hour pressing and then 24 hours at room temp that you reference is very different from my approach. I agree with Pav that resting at room temp for 16-24 hours without salting or brining is an unnecessary risk for contamination. After pressing/brining I always let almost all of my cheeses drain at room temp for 24-48 hours anyways. What I am referring to is 24 hours at room temp AFTER 3 weeks in the cave. After pressing, the lactic starter bacteria are still extremely active eating up lactose and converting to lactic acid. The pH continues to drop for a few days and there is a lot of competition for resources. So you would see very little activity from Propionic anyway. The way I do it, after 3 weeks in the cave, the LSB are much less active, lactose has seriously declined, the pH has actually gone UP, the LSB population is past it's peak and they are starting to die off. So the environment is now much more hospitable to Propionic. So for me the 24 hours at room temp becomes much more significant.

...and I have references that do call it the KING of Gruyeres.

I'm not sure why you are comparing Beaufort to a Comte. There is a much closer relationship with a Gruyere. I also feel it is a practical fallacy to compare a naturally produced AOC cheese with one made in an artificial restricted environment like our homes or cheese factories. For example, many/most naturally produced Alpine types do not use added Propionic or even lactic bacteria at all since the cow's diets seem to furnish ample supply. In fact, some AOC cheeses are very specific about NOT adding artificial bacterial cultures. Manufactured cultures were developed as an attempt to mimic those natural conditions, but we can't really. But what manufactured cultures did do was standardize our results. I have do doubt that pure natural cheese has huge variations in taste and quality because of changes in the cows diet.

So here's a conundrum to ponder. If a French dairy farmer is making AOC cheeses by strictly natural techniques, how can he produce Comte or Gruyere one day, and then Beaufort the next? OK it can be argued that a given farmer only produces one type. So then why is the farmer over the next hill able to produce a different cheese with a different level of Propionic?

[ArnaudForestier]

Now, Sailor, you're probably going to see some sarcasm below.  That would be because I have to admit, I THINK  I'm GETTING  a LOT of  from you, don't tend to get a lotta love;  not sure why, despite my feeling it's pretty important to honor folks who've helped me out in the short time I'm here by crediting them for what they've given, and you've been included in that group.  I don't smell that bad, and I do brush my teeth once a week or so.

What I am referring to is 24 hours at room temp AFTER 3 weeks in the cave.

Gotcha.  Thanks for clarifying. 

..and I have references that do call it the KING of Gruyeres. 

Sailor, gotta say, it's that use of ALL CAPS and sarcastic winky-thing you do that always brings me to cold shivers, and mantras of "man, Arnaud.  You really are, just THAT stupid". lol. 

Ah, well, since I'm sure it's vitally important to this community whether we're calling it "King" or "Prince," now - do share. I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours:

BEAUFORT AOC,The Prince of Gruyères,a cheese from The Alps.

http://www.travbuddy.com/travel-blogs/54696/BEAUFORT-AOC-Prince-Gruyres-cheese-14

Le Beaufort, prince des Gruyères

Beaufort : Prince des Gruyères

Le Prince des gruyères

making this "Prince of Gruyeres" a seasonal treat.
Beaufort, nicknamed the "Prince of Gruyeres."

-and, oh, about a billion more.  Kings, please?  Oh, yeah, almost plumb forgot -

I'm not sure why you are comparing Beaufort to a Comte.

Well, because this thread is about Beaufort.  And you said,

Beaufort is sometimes called the "King of Gruyeres" so I manage mine as if it were a Gruyere.

This would be the Beaufort - Gruyere connection.

And Comte is also called, Gruyere de Comté.

This would be, the Comté-Gruyère connection.  Hence, what I've  said, uh, because these are all considered Gruyères, kin.  I'm not sure why you're splitting these particular hairs?

I also feel it is a practical fallacy to compare a naturally produced AOC cheese with one made in an artificial restricted environment like our homes or cheese factories.

Not sure if it's  logical fallacy, so long as its limitations are known.  E.g.,

a 50/50 TA/LH is a decent starting point for Beaufort. In terms of flavor formation, it'll be alright. Not superb because the strains are wrong, but very good in terms of understanding and learning the make.

-and I have said, here and there and everywhere,

As Pav concludes - well, basically, my family and I need to move to the Savoie, most likely, as what I'm after is pretty intensely tied to the flora, geography and traditions indigenous to that part of the world.

Until then, or in lieu of that, I have to work to understand the underlying principles behind this style - its traditions, ingredients and methods - and do my best to parse it with what's available to me here, in the States.  I'm pretty confident that by sticking to that approach I will - as my late Sensei (his name was Tenzan Fumio Toyoda) once said to me, "master this, and you can master anything."

Not a big deal, I suppose - my traditionalist blinder, my desire for a true, alpage Beaufort, jamming my logical radars, I know.  I would be interested in trying your "chalet emulation" blend of strains, however, at some point, even if it's a mild differentiation from my TA61, and LH100.  As to moving to France, yes, you're right, and this is probably at the heart of it all.

-Etc.  I'm well aware that without living there, I'm not making a Beaufort - any more than you're making a Stilton, to be honest.  Which is why I say so.  What I am trying to do is to learn a few things, in a few fairly rigorous ways.  Not sure why that's not being picked up.

So here's a conundrum to ponder. If a French dairy farmer is making AOC cheeses by strictly natural techniques, how can he produce Comte or Gruyere one day, and then Beaufort the next? OK it can be argued that a given farmer only produces one type.

Yes, a given French fermier produces only one type.  If you're asking me, some of it is due to things that make sense (there are microclimates), and some of it is due to the weight of history, far removed any longer from the reality on the ground (e.g., the 1855 Bordeaux classifications). 

So then why is the farmer over the next hill able to produce a different cheese with a different level of Propionic?

Well, if you're saying that the natural levels of propionic in their environment differ:

For example, many/most naturally produced Alpine types do not use added Propionic or even lactic bacteria at all since the cow's diets seem to furnish ample supply.

I'd say there's your answer - different autochthonous culture yielding a different result.

If you're saying, different farmers use different levels of adjunct prop., I'd say you're contradicting yourself. 

For example, many/most naturally produced Alpine types do not use added Propionic or even lactic bacteria at all since the cow's diets seem to furnish ample supply. In fact, some AOC cheeses are very specific about NOT adding artificial bacterial cultures.

So then why is the farmer over the next hill able to produce a different cheese with a different level of Propionic?

Cannot exist in the same universe, if your first paragraph attempts to argue by reliance on natural environmental and material endowments alone, and the second attempts to argue by alchemical usage of Propionic.

Which is it? 


And can we perhaps truly stick to constructive thoughts on my proposed experimental design, and move this discussion of propionic over to the propionic thread I created, as I mentioned, by any chance? 

More than happy to continue this in PM, though my past PM's to you have gone unanswered. 

Yours,

Paul

[linuxboy]

woah, woah, gentlemen. You're both wrong . I'm just kidding...  . Drinks? Cheers?

Here's the history of all these cheeses, if anyone really wants to know:

Back 2000-some years ago, there was a group of people who inhabited the entire region of the Jura called the Sequani http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequani. These people, even in Roman times, made a cheese that was a hard cheese, scalded to high temperature, and salted on the outside, then left to ripen. Everyone made the same basic style of cheese all in the region. There was no France, there was no Switzerland. And it was generally called gruyere. Who started it? The Sequanes, who lived in what is now both France and Switzerland. The French say they did and have evidence going back more than 1,000 years. And the Swiss say they did, and show their history going back 1,000 years.

Fast forward to modern times. In all those years, some differences developed among all the regions. But they all made the same basic cheese. These differences included that in the Comte region, before they made their gruyere, they would skim the fat off the milk. Whereas in Switzerland, for their gruyere did not. In 1959, the French were tired of fighting over the name of gruyere and said "we are the original cheese-eating surrender monkeys. We will just keep doing everything the same but rebrand our cheese as comte. (And get some guys to push through the AOC)." So they did, and comte was born. As a way to thumb their noses at the Swiss and create market differentiation, they called comte "the king of the gruyeres".

But, it wasn't the end. There were people who made gruyere the old-school way, with alpage milk. So they said, screw you guys, we are going to make Beaufort in France. From the best milk in the best conditions. And we're going to make it small scale, not like your huge cooperatives who make Comte. And hey, we already have a king of the gruyeres, so let's call this the prince, because it's younger, cooler, and uses Facebook.  It also has these badass racing stripes on the side. Concave, baby! So that's what these guys did. And it didn't end there. The Swiss went OMG Nooooes!! The hugh manatee1!11!1!one!. And they made their own Beaufort, but called it L'etivaz.

Fin

Not really the end. Everyone fights over the name. It's all the same cheese with slight variations to account for terroir, process, cow breeds, etc. Best way to look at it is that gruyere is a family of cheeses, and they're all made basically the same way.

[ArnaudForestier]

Blessed are the Peacemakers. 

However, never, never mention the Sequani before my gallic blood. 



Mon arrière-arrière-arrière....arrière-grand-père. 

[linuxboy]

wow, really? An Arvani? That's Vircingetorix, right? Or am I confusing my statues. I remember reading about that battle in Plutach. Mine were a combination of Vikings, who pillaged and plundered the populace, and Mongols, who pillages and plundered the populace, and the Muscovite nobles, who exploited the populace. With the coming of socialism, most of my ancestors were slaughtered, or driven to poverty, or put in camps.

[ArnaudForestier]

Hahahah, no, not really, yes, I wish it were so, yes, I dream it so, and yes, the biggest, baddest chieftain west of the Alps, the guy who's pic is on my son's wall...Vercingetorix.

Cool you have such a good knowledge on your background, Pav.  I think one of modernity's great tragedies is this not knowing where one comes from.  Though I am really sorry to hear what your family underwent under the USSR.  My wife's family, too - horrible time under Joe (whose grandaughter, we actually know.  Now that's pretty wild, given my wife's experience with him).

[iratherfly]

Paul, I was flipping yesterday in one of my cheese books, French Cheese, [DK Publishing, ISBN 0-7566-1402-3, suggested retail: $20.00] (highly recommended) and accidentally stopped over the Beaufort pages while looking for some other cheese.  I thought this would be really great info for you.  The editor of this great cheese volume spent actual time with the cheesemakers and did thorough research as in all of DK's publications.

I was too lazy to get that dreaded scanner out of the closet and connect it but had a digital camera nearby so I captured those 3 pages for you.  Hope you dins it useful. See image attachments below, click for larger size.

Edit: Amazon link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/French-Cheese-Eyewitness-Companions-Publishing/dp/0756614023 - apparently it is out of print currently and some booksellers sell it for some ridiculous prices.

[ArnaudForestier]

Fantastic, thanks very much Yoav!

Funny thing is - [url-http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0751303461]my book by Yasui & Yamada[/url] was lost somewhere, so I just bought both books, the DK and this one.  Especially now, seeing the pics, I can't wait. 

I've also got Pierre Androuet's books coming, and several on grazing/farming/locavore - Salatin, Pollan (no, I never read it), Larry Tranel, Graze, The Stockman Grass Farmer, and more.  I am also seriously considering our own UW Madison Short Course in Dairying, with an emphasis in rotational grazing. 

New life, and a surfeit of good material, in between my 3 cheeses of this Spring-into-Summer - Beaufort, reblochons, and new tommes.  Thanks again, Yoav, very much appreciated.

Paul

[iratherfly]

You are welcome Paul!

Androuët is great (I visited their amazing fromagerie in Paris; amazing).  I would watch out though when buying the book; it has been published for several decades now (Pierre Androuët died in 2005 a very old man...) and you really need a new version to include all those cheese resurrections that occurred in Europe lately. Especially a myriad of new additions to the AOC club...

I too am now working my spring-to-summer milk. Oh my! I have 3 fantastic batches in the cave; one is my own bloomy rind sensation, I call it x26 (they only get names once they are a replicable commercial grade recipe). It's a hay-aged square camembert-like cheese with very complex rind and a ridiculous combination of starters.  The second is a washed rind Trappist style cheese, somewhere between a Reblochon, Tallegio and Saint Nectaire. Very unique wash on that one.  The third is my personal take on Chabichou; it's a lactic aged goats cheese that has some yeasty sweetness to it and rather hard rind that locks in moist pate.  I would post photos when done.

Tonight I got some local organic grass-fed jersey milk. I am going to do something rather crazy with it; details to come.

Really got to get back to Tommes, I need to put a few for long term aging in the cave. Running out of space here

[arkc]

Paul,

Sorry to be so late on this, but I'm relatively new in town.

I don't do cultures.....I buy them.   Could you break down the starter, etc. used for your 5 gallons?

I've made Gruyeres before but wasn't 'thrilled' with the result.  I think I used a Margaret Morris
recipe.

annie

[ArnaudForestier]

Annie, per the comment in the "camembert-brie" thread, a work in progress; but for now, I depend for my mesos in the milk I source (and here, it doesn't appear there are many meso-SLABs, at all), and come in at 1% primer bulk equivalent (let me know if this is new to you - Sailor has a fantastic thread on what he does, Pav and Francois also contribute their expertise) thermophilics only for inoculation - 50% TA (S. thermophilis) and 50% LH100 (e.g., 25% L. helveticus, 25% L. del. lactis). 

I also do inoculate with a very small amt. of propionic, per Sailor's recipe.  None of my Beauforts have been aged long enough to play, yet, with this contribution, but I've come to understand it's dynamics, relative to other alpine styles (emmental, comte, etc.).