I need tech help on a camembert quandary.

[arkc]

I have been making cams for several years using the same recipe and raw (6 days
old) from the same dairy.  The recipe was Margaret Morris and very simple.  There
was no PH meter needed.  My friends and family loved it.  But I decided to use another dairy that had fresher milk (one day old) and only Jersey.   

Using my old recipe,  the cheeses were over-ripe and totally runny in 18 days.

So I decided to use the cam recipe on the Peter Dixon web-site. I am attaching
a brief recipe outline and my comments after each section. 

I hope one of you on the forum can help. 

[Tomer1]

Yoav suggests doing a pre drain of the curds.
I think you should try it.

[arkc]

THANKS,  I'LL TRY IT NEXT WEEK AND LET YOU KNOW!

ARKC

[arkc]

Perhaps I was't very clear....What I wanted to know was why this milk behaved so
differently than the other. 

The cheese drained all day at 68 degrees and is now less than 'monumental'.  It has also quit draining.  But why the different behavior?

Does anyone have an answer?

arkc

[arkc]

P.S.  I realize that this is not the typical Cam shape.  If this recipe turns out to be wonderful, , ,
well,  it could, , , I won't fill the molds to the top.

arkc

[iratherfly]

Well, first off, Jersey milk is far richer in minerals, fat and proteins than most other breeds and this means different coagulation and set time and different firmness to the milk.

Secondly, if you added cream to the recipe it's no longer a cam but a triple cream. They do tend to surprise with fast ripening because people don't know how much moisture is really in them, because the fat hardens in the cave and trap so much moisture. I would try cutting the curd a bit earlier. Curd tends to build casein membranes that trap moisture ad the milk acidifies. Cutting it earlier (or maybe just smaller) may help you get a firmer drier cheese so it won't ammoniate so quickly.

As for your document:

(Peter Dixon said would take maybe 2 hours ….TOOK 45 MIN!!!)

This has to do with the condition of your milk. The more lactic acid has built up in it (or ...the less fresh it is) - the shorter acidification time you will have. You want it to be fresh and long acidification because you want as much of the acidification to occur with your starter bacteria rather than with the milk's own, so if it takes longer it means that your milk is better

Which PC/GC did you use?

[(WAS ONLY 8+)/quote] - That's okay. Probably due to high mineral content and the use of cream

(Cut at 54 min with  Ph 6.4.  Wasn’t very clean cut, more like
semi lactic.)

Wait, did you use raw milk? If not, did you use Calcium Chloride? Was it pasteurized gently or HTST?

(In morning was still draining  and had  lost very little height.)

I think that's the key probe. As I explained earlier, all this fat traps whey in it, so you get little drainage.  This means overly moist curd and that is why you are having liquifying cheese at 18 days.  My suggestions are to try with a different curd cut (smaller), try cutting earlier, or try to dry the cheese past the salting stage for 48 hours in room temperature before doing any cave aging in a container.

Tomer's comment about what I said regarding pre-draining isn't entirely accurate. I suggest that with semi-lactic curd, but I think that with Camembert this may destroy your curd.  That being said however, it may be worth a try. You may get an entirely different cheese by doing so.

[arkc]

Thank you so much for your help..

Now, to answer your questions. 

This has to do with the condition of your milk. The more lactic acid has built up in it (or ...the less fresh it is) -

The milk was a only 36 hours old.

Which PC/GC did you use?

ABL and 13

Wait, did you use raw milk? If not, did you use Calcium Chloride?

I used Raw.

I will use your suggestions next Wed.  I'll cut it a little earlier and a little smaller.  I will also
expect to drain it longer.  What you said makes great sense!

Once again, thanks ever so....

annie

[arkc]

I keep very defined notes on each cheese I make.  I just looked at these for the last 'attempt'.

I goofed.  I used only 3/4 of the amount of rennet called for in this recipe.  It wasn't as little
as I would use for a semi-lactic.  But it wasn't as much as was called for.  Would this have
any negative effect on the 'do'

[iratherfly]

Well, that could be the issue too!

Different milk from different animal/breed may respond differently to your cultures too. That's quite normal because the animals have different immune system and different feed so tha nutritional balance is different too.  I have never used ABL and stick with PC VS or PC Neige. I usually get better results with Geo 15 or 17, so mix it up.

36 hours is very fresh, but it really depends on what happens during those 36 hours...  Freshness to me means that lactic bacteria had not yet populated the milk. It's a combination of sanitation and temperature too, not just time.

Anyway, it really seems like the biggest problem was your rennet. There are some lactic and semi lactic brie type cheeses out there. You just need to hold it longer and age it longer, like Brie de Melun (AOC) and Brie de Montereau

[arkc]

As I mentioned in my first post about this,  it cut like a lactic.  Well then maybe this cheese
has a chance of being good!  I do hate ruining a batch.

But I am still trying to produce a cheese that is similar to my prior Cams.  So next time I will try upping
the rennet. 

I use ABL and 13 because I read (somewhere in P. Dixon's stuff) that these both will make a stronger
cheese....And that's what I like.

I have also been working on an Epoisses type cheese.  I'm almost there.  The oldest one is
'leaking' a little.  When I put the tiny glob that leaked out into my mouth, it actually tasted like an Epoisses.  I just have to learn more about making a stronger rind.  Maybe I'll post a question about
that later.  I certainly hope that you will comment.

Thanks again,
Annie

[iratherfly]

Cool. I am always afraid that making stronger Camembert wll result in a less stable one that ammoniates quicker. What's your experience with that combination of ABL and Geo 13? Interesting.  How does the rind appear? Wrinkly or smooth like snow?

For Eppoises, the rind is quite gentle but you can make it stronger with a bit extra Geo to give it thickness and rubbing it with a brush or salt so that it is moist instead of wet after washing. Making those micro scratches and tears in the rind makes it heal and strengthen. Epoisses has an interesting aging process. Do you use Marc? You need to gradually use more Marc and less water

[arkc]

With the milk I used for several years,  the cams were on the pungent side.  I've never had one ammoniate.

About the rinds, if I use only PC, the rind is very beautiful and 'furry', but the flavor can be a little on the bitter side.  Adding GC, the rind isn't as beautiful but there is no bitterness .  My rinds have all been smooth, no wrinkles.

My family loves Epoisses and therefore likes the stronger cams.  I am hoping that with the Jersey milk, my cheeses will still be on the pungent side, but with greater richness and depth.

And thanks ever so for the suggestion on the Epoisses rind.  I will start today brushing to make it stronger.  I use a California made grappa, that like Marc, is made from the Pinot Noir skins.  And yes, I make it the Grappa wash gradually stronger. These are the first 2 batches that have actually had a lovely deep orange rind.  The 2 batches are from March 30 and April 6.  And since I've not yet had a batch come to fruition, I don't know when the rinds will start to dry out.  (They are a little tacky.) Do you know how and when this should happen?

So sorry, but  I have to rush off now.  I'm very anxious to brush my 'stinkies'. 

Thanks again for your wonderful help. 

P.S. When my new cams are ready to go, I'll post a photo.

Annie