Stabilized Bloomy Rind

[arkc]

I had complained to PD that using my 'old' recipes with my 'new' Jersey milk had resulted
in Bloomies that were over ripe in 18 day.  (They had lasted 4-5 weeks with other milk.)
He suggested using TA50.  Which I did on April 27.  I just opened this cheese this
morning.  The flavor is not as deep my prior Cams and there is just a slight bitter
after taste.  I've never used TA50 before.  Does anyone out there know if this can be
the cause of the bitterness?  And would that have anything to do with the lack of flavor?

If no one knows, I guess I'll find out in a week or so.  I will be opening another Bloomie
done a week after this one, but without TA50.  To make it last a little longer, I raised
the temp from 86 to 92 and cut instead of ladeling.  So far (it was made May 4) it is not
quite ready so I know that these 2 changes at least resulted in a longer aging cheese.

annie

[linuxboy]

Does anyone out there know if this can be
the cause of the bitterness? 

You used only TA? No MM with it or no 4001? If so, yes, can be a cause.

And would that have anything to do with the lack of flavor?

Yes, as does your terminal pH before salting.

So far (it was made May 4) it is not
quite ready so I know that these 2 changes at least resulted in a longer aging cheese.

Yes, you lowered the moisture content, it will age slower.

[arkc]

Of course I used a messo.  I used mm100 in conjunction with TA50. (Dixon's suggestion)

I didn't have a meter then.  But I let them drain FULLY before salting...And I didn't say it
wasn't salty enough, it was.... It just didn't have enough flavor.

So I take it that using TA50 doesn't add to bitterness.  Everything else was the same as
I do every time.  I'm stumped.

Thanks for trying,

annie

[linuxboy]

Of course I used a messo.  I used mm100 in conjunction with TA50. (Dixon's suggestion)

Then you made a partially stabilized bloomy rind. Fully stabilized use only TA. That's why I asked, try try and figure out. It's not a given that a meso is used for a stabilized make.

And I didn't say it
wasn't salty enough, it was.... It just didn't have enough flavor.

Neither did I. I asked about terminal pH. The terminal pH before salting is of crucial importance in stabilized cheeses because when you're working with this technology of cheesemaking, the level of bound degraded colloidal calcium, and free calcium in the paste is crucial to the final gooeyness of the paste. And the terminal pH before salting is a significant part of that, so is the rennet pH, and so is the drain pH. If you salted at around 5.0, for example, it will be less runny. If you let it acidify down and salted at  4.7, it will be more gooey AND it will also have more flavor. The reason it will have more flavor is because there's a higher bacterial population, and there's more lactate for the mold to consume. So you will get more proteolysis and more camembert-type notes.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

using TA50 doesn't add to bitterness.

In isolation by itself, no. But the way that it changes the make might. It changes the acidity curve, and you need to coincide everything to a rather narrow band of acidity targets for making decisions. It might be that there wasn't enough mesophilic bacteria to break down bitter peptides.

It's hard to say what it could be without testing. It might have been that the acidity was not low enough, or that the PC was too active and wasn't balanced with geo or other helped molds/bacteria/yeasts. It might have been that you had an infestation in the milk and it had some psychotrophic bacteria. My guess is milk quality and possibly in combination with affinage. Typically the make doesn't really contribute to bitterness that much in bloomy rind types.

[arkc]

Sorry, I have time now to answer only the first of your blurbs.  Number one, I didn't say "fully
stabilized"... I used the term that Peter Dixon used i.e. stabilized... Or maybe I misunderstood
him.  I will ask him, when I speak to him next week, what he meant.

annie

[linuxboy]

Sure, everyone uses all these terms differently, that's why I'm trying to figure it all out . Fully stabilized is my term, I wasn't quoting. I've heard people use stabilized cheese to refer to anything from retorted to UFed to full thermo make to full meso make with adjuncts to thermo/meso blends to processed cheese. Knowing Peter's approach, I'm pretty sure he meant the classic French approach of using MM100 and TA 50 or TA 40 series in a 50/50, 60/40, or 70/30 blend (depending on shelf life and flavor needs). I call this partially stabilized to differentiate from full TA 40 or TA 50 series makes, which I call fully stabilized.

[arkc]

I'm pretty sure he meant the classic French approach of using MM100 and TA 50 or TA 40 series in a 50/50,

You are absolutely correct about the 50/50 mix.  That's what he suggested.   

It might have been that the acidity was not low enough, or that the PC was too active and wasn't balanced with geo or

Oh, and by the way, owing to an earlier discussion with him, I always use about about 1/5 as much GC as PC.  I did have a little bit of bitterness when I was using only PC.

Now, let me back up a little to the salting question.

Neither did I. I asked about terminal pH. The terminal pH before salting is of crucial importance

I didn't have a meter, but I always let my Cams drain very thoroughly before salting.  If they were truly
drained, wouldn't the PH be about 4.7?  I really hate this,  but I really do need a meter!!!

And, if one did use 100% Thermo(TA50 eg) would that make a bitter cheese....Oh, never mind, I know
that you will tell me here that that is dependant on other factors.

Many thanks,

annie

[linuxboy]

50/50 mix. 

What you can do if you want some stabilization, but still good flavor is to use a different ratio and use more MM.

If they were truly
drained, wouldn't the PH be about 4.7?

Much of the time, yes, but not necessarily. For example, if your room was cooler, say in the 60s, then getting that last .3-.5 drop is harder. Or if you add rennet at 6.5 and drain at 6.4 instead of adding rennet at 6.4-6.45 and draining at 6.2-6.3, also harder to get that last drop because the calcium levels are too high. Moisture levels are interrelated with acidity, but don't necessarily coincide.

Oh, never mind, I know
that you will tell me here that that is dependant on other factors.

Why do you say that? No, if you made a fully stabilized cheese with TA, it wouldn't be bitter just because you used TA. If it did turn bitter, it would most likely be due to milk contamination or mold balance or affinage.

[arkc]

What you can do if you want some stabilization, but still good flavor is to use a different ratio and use more MM.

Thanks, maybe I'll try a 60/40 mix.

Why do you say that? No, if you made a fully stabilized cheese with TA, it wouldn't be bitter just because you used TA. If it did turn bitter, it would most likely be due to milk contamination or mold balance or affinage.

This is exactly what I said you would say!


Have to run, Chaser is asking for her breakfast....Super help and thanks again,

annie

P.S.  From another post, I really would like the formulas.  I managed math at Berkeley, think I can do
this also.

[arkc]

Almost forgot.  LB, the room where I drained was about 68 or 69 degrees.

annie

[arkc]

If no one knows, I guess I'll find out in a week or so.  I will be opening another Bloomie
done a week after this one, but without TA50.  To make it last a little longer, I raised
the temp from 86 to 92 and cut instead of ladeling.  So far (it was made May 4) it is not
quite ready so I know that these 2 changes at least resulted in a longer aging cheese.

This quote is from me when I started this thread...Well, I just broke down and opened the
25 day old Cam.  It's perfect!!!  A small core that is not quite gooey, flavor is superb, and
no bitterness. 

I will keep the information I have gleaned (with the help of Linuxboy)  about TA50.  Maybe
I will use it in future with other cheeses.  But for the time being, I achieved what I wanted,
a 25 day Cam that is perfect. Actually I like them aged a bit longer.  They get just a
little stronger.  I will open another in the May4 batch in a week and post a pretty picture. 

I will be starting my second Taleggio and/or Munster Wed.  Back to the stinkies!!

annie