Bread Making - Sourdough & Boules

[ArnaudForestier]

I prefer to use time and a few strech and folds to develope the gluten.
I dont do any kneading aswell,time (and love) is all you need.

Agreed.  I don't knead, do pretty wet doughs, and just do a long, cool ferment with several stretch and folds.

[iratherfly]

These look amazing!!!

I often mess up the sliting with these hydrated doughts though. How did you get it to slit so perfectly?  They are usually so sticky that my lame just pulls the cut and the dough knots together before it has a chance to rise.

[ArnaudForestier]

Thanks, Yoav.  My "lame" is pretty lame, really...lol...just a straight razor blade jury-rigged with the pointed end of a chopstick, threaded through the blade slits.  I don't really have a special technique, the only thing I've tried to master is to slash bravely and quickly, at an angle (to the loaf), so that there's some overlap, “grigne.”  Any hesitation in cutting, I find, drags the loaf, so I really do slash, rather than cut.  Sorry for the vagueness – difficult to convey what I mean, but I hope it conveys something meaningful.

Edit:  Oh, I should add, that typically a do a very long ferment, with often two or even three cold-ferment stages, including in the form, in cloth – so there's a bit of a “rind” by the time I get to bake day.  That, too, helps the slash, I'm sure.

[iratherfly]

Yes, I do that at 30° angle and have a french lame which is really a razor blade with a long handle. Works great on drier loaves, baguettes etc. but with some of those 60% hydrated doughs it doesn't matter how determined I am, if I do my smooth one-motion straight and quick slash, the dough just stick to the blade and pulls, destroying the loaf, or I get a tiny shallow slit that gets closed and heals before the dough gets to rise. It's a bit annoying. so much so that I have reduced these loaves' moisture so I get less rise and have to let them ferment longer but at least it looks like proper bread.

I am also having a slight crust issue with these doughs. It comes out beautifully dark and seems crispy but after cooling down, there is so much water in these doughs that it softens up the crust and I need to put it under heat again to make it crispy. I am not sure what's the step to take. Perhaps baking it on low heat and extending the bake by 20 minutes to dry the living daylights out of it.  Problem with low heat is that it creates no rapid rise and the long crusting period makes a thick crust

[DeejayDebi]

ARGH! You guys are killing me! my bigget weakness is bread. Good warm bread with a nice basil EVOO spread! Mmmmmmmmmm

Dang you did get married right Yoav? 

[Tomer1]

"but with some of those 60% hydrated doughs it doesn't matter how determined I am, if I do my smooth one-motion straight and quick slash, the dough just stick to the blade and pulls"

60%? you mean 80%?  60 is really dry, more toward a baggle or a dry pizza dough.

The trick of crisp crust which remains crisp is
A)super heating your baking stone (My oven goes all the way to 270c and I crack it on at least 40min before baking).
B)browning at high temp (Maximum temp your oven allows during the first 5-7 minutes with steam.
C)Venting the oven of the steam after that 7 minutes.
D)lowering the temp so to avoid over browning (burning) ,You can go as low as 190c.
E)Over bake it, go beyond the 200f and cook it well done.
The trick is to achive all of thos at the same time, you need to know your oven to do it right so you end up with a golden brown top,with browned bottom and low residual moisture.
Cool completly on a rack with good air circulation before bagging it or what not.
I use a few layers of newspaper (the sports section is the best) to store my bread because its a good moisture absorber.
If I make a really large loaf ,half is sliced and goes into the freezer to be used for toasts\cheese toasties or I give some away.
If not It usually keeps for 2-3 days.

[ArnaudForestier]

Yes, I do that at 30° angle and have a french lame which is really a razor blade with a long handle.

Yes.  And as I mentioned, my "lame" is lame, just a razor on a chopstick, but it works fine, and is a heck of a lot cheaper than a bought lame. 

I'd agree with Tomer that 60% hydration isn't what I'd call a wet dough.  The pictured loaves above, for instance, were at about 76% going into the oven.  I'd also agree with Tomer that hot stones are key.  He heats his up for 40 minutes, I go all the way to an hour.  I don't vent steam, but it might be because I have gotten it down, the amount of water in my “steaming pan” (an old crepe pan, black steel).  I do drop the temp – oven is at 500F, immediately dropped to 400F.  And I cool completely on a wire rack before bagging.

[iratherfly]

I usually do 500°F to 450°F, feels like below it would not be hot enough. I don't use stones which could be the reason for the issues indeed. (old stone broke). I have done up to 80% hydration and I find it impossible to slash.  The lame I have is a stick with razor so I think it's the same as what you are describing. I find that a long bladed meat slicing knife works better and in the case of baguettes I cut as deep as 3/4 of the baguette's height to get a proper slash.  I just need this not to be so sticky around the blade so that it won't pull it and that it wouldn't stick back together before it rises in the oven.  It's a lot easier with loaves I rise in a brotform and bake flat but with no-knead in a dutch oven - forget about it. It's so soft that you can't slit it and then move it to the hot dutch oven. Ahhh ...practice!

[ArnaudForestier]

I find 500/400F works well for me, on boules and batards.  The "stones" I use are simply red ceramic tiles, untreated - confirmed from talking with the manufacturer that they are food-safe.  Dirt cheap, I think about $1 per tile, if I remember correctly.  I just lay them in, 6 at a time, and they work really well, after one seasoning. 

My slashing tends to work better on the true levains, the boules and batards – my baguettes are a hybrid of sourdough and cultured yeast, and I have to be more careful with them to avoid pulling the slash (and they're hydrated less).  I make the baguettes for quick consumption – they stay fresh about a day.  My levains easily hold close to a week without loss of freshness.  Sourdough's amazing stuff, isn't it?

[Tomer1]

With slashing there is really no reason to go deep, you just want to "injure" the surface to allow for expantion and internal gas to release.
This might be the reason your lame sticks, if you get a good dry surface on a high hydration loaf with a good amount of flour it creats a sort of low hydration surface which can be slashed without a problem but again you dont want to go deep into the soft gooey interior.

[iratherfly]

I get that and I know how to slash a normal bread quite well. The problem is that the hydrated doughs just ignore the lame altogether and heal before they got any chance to rise. 

[Tomer1]

Are you being extra generious with the flour? preferbly rye which has higher absorption capacity?
Add it during shaping and by the time its proofed it will suck in most of the flour, so again dust it considerablly and pat it a bit.
Hold the dough with one hand and slash so your sort of helping the dough react to the pulling force.
I saw a good clip of it showed on a high hydration battard, I'l try and find it.

[iratherfly]

Thanks Tomer, so you mean make the surface somewhat drier by dusting it generously with a more absorbent flour and then slash?

Also, lately I figured out that I have had an issue with dough that over-rises in the second rise. This means that even if I slash it -it is already at the end of it's maximum rise so the slits don't expand because there is nothing more to rise.  For a while I confused this with slashing problem but recently I make sure to rise it less in the second rise and let it go nuts in the oven. a HUGE improvement in the bread texture and crust formation.

[ArnaudForestier]

Yoav, I bulk ferment, 4 hours poolish, 5 hours stretch and fold, then into the banetton and overnight, 15-18 hours in the refrigerator.  For kicks I used to often bake the loaf directly from the refrigerator.  Explosive spring!  You can see - in my experience, with a direct from cooler-to-oven bake, the height is so much, it poses a problem with top-browning:




It is ridiculous enough for my wife to term the bread by a certain anatomical part ( ), so I allow a bit of tempering and continued ferment the day I bake, say, an hour, 1:15.  That allows good spring, while not being the uncontrolled, explosive "pop."

[iratherfly]

Sorry, I haven't been on the board for a couple of weeks anf getting back into the threads. Can you elaborate about the exact formula?