Crottin - Cultures & Slip Skin Discussion

[mcfly]

I've made Crottins over the past year and each time I make them, I get a very heavy white coating of Penicillin on them (top image), its expected as I use penicillium candidum. My question is how do you get the nice yellow, slighly transparent rind with very little or no penicillin? (bottom image)

I also get a slip skin ?

Steve

[Chris_Abrahamson]

Steve

There was a real good discussion on the site last fall about issues I was having with crottins.  Thanks to iratherfly and linuxboy and Francois, my latest efforts have been fairly consistent.  I've been using PLA with p. candidum and geo.  I will get an initial white bloom after 1 week but then by the 2nd-3rd week the PLA is taking over.  By the 6th week, they're looking like your second photo.

To control slip, I will drain them in molds for 28-30 hours, flip and drain in molds for another 24 hours before removing and hand salting.  After salting I'll let them drain for another 24 hours and if still too moist I will use a fan to dry them slightly before putting them in an covered box in my minifrig.   Once in the covered box, I turn them daily and wipe out any excessive moisture in the box.

This should be the link to my initial questions and resulting feed back 

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4489.0.html

[mcfly]

Great, I just had a good read of some old posts which helped. I should have done that before sorry 

I think my main problem was too much moisture, they should have been drained for longer.

I'm going to have another bash once my Stilton is done. Ill probably have to give the fridge a good clean as the blue may attack them?!

Many thanks!

 

[iratherfly]

the big cheese - your crottin looks good but the PC seems very wild. You need to pat/rub them gently and flatten it down so that it doesn't grow so high and it creates a lower but denser rind.  As Chris mentioned, by week 2 some of the PC will begin to recede. The Geo would have created a cream color rind below and if you are using PLA it will be even more pronounced. If this fails to arrive, check on the humidity in your aging container or cave. reduce ambient moisture to increase Geo growth and decrease PC growth.  If you do not have PLA, you can mimic it (kind of) by mixing cheese yeast, B.Linen and Geo. Use 1/8 tsp of this mixture for each gallon milk. 

Chris_Abrahamson - great to know people make use of those threads!  You don't need to use Geo if you are using PLA. PLA already contains a healthy dose of Geo, so you are essentially doubling up on it and possibly creating a thicker and gooey-ier rind than you want.  Do you age them in the refrigerator?  I am asking because 6 weeks is quite unusual for these to still be fresh so I wonder if you do this by temperature control. At 55F they should begin to become hard around the 3rd week and are quite hard and "goaty" by the 4th week. 5th week they are already a grating cheese.

[mcfly]

I was going to ask what PLE was, I just emailed my supplier to see if they stock it, I can buy Geotrichum Candidum and Blines so I may end up doing a 50/50 mix. The cheese above isn't my cheese sorry, I just grabbed it from the web as an example. Here is my slip skin cheese.

I've learnt a great deal from this post so many thanks, I really appreciate your help!

Ill get cracking this weekend...

[Chris_Abrahamson]

Steve - that looks like a photo of one of my first attempts!  Before I received all of the feedback on the site.   I get PLA from the Dairy Connection in Madison.   It's not on their website so you have to call them.   Another great group of people, IMHO.

IRF- I had cut back the initial use of Geo when I started using the PLA.  I'll try eliminating the Geo completely on my next batch.    I still trying to find the straw aging mats that you had suggested last year.  The cheesemongers out in Denver just drew a blank stare when I've asked them if they're using them or have extras.    As for aging, I keep them in a covered box for 3 weeks ( 53F 85% avg RH ) and then store them in my minifrig (53F 65% avg RH) for another 2 weeks.  I'll start eating them at 5 weeks and they rarely make it to 7 weeks.   The longest I've kept one was 8 weeks and at that point it was getting close to being grateable

[iratherfly]

Steve - This is easy to fix. On your next batch:

• Pre-drain the curds (if you already do that - just do more than what you have been doing). Age in less moisture (85%-90%, not 95%-100%).
• Reduce geo to half what you are using
• Rub/tap the cheese lightly on yor daily flip. It will help spread the rind bacteria evenly all over, as well as make a denser thinner rind instead of thicker loose rind. It will make it tighter

I am 100% sure this will work the next time you try. The only other thing that can mess you up a bit in terms of moisture control and texture is getting the acidity, rennet and calcium right but I don't suspect that these are problems you are having here. (which recipe are you using?)

I too purchase my PLA from The Dairy Connection. They are indeed great. You need to email them for it, but you don't HAVE to use it. You said you have some B.Linens, so on the next attempt you can do as follows: for each gallon measure 1/8 tsp PC, 1/16 tsp geo and a pinch of B.Linen. If you have cheese yeast like KL 71, DH or R2R than add a pinch of that too.

Chris_Abrahamson - Your aging sounds proper. These should be ready to consume at day 14 (Affiné) and at their peak at day 21, after which they become "à point". Don't miss out on them during that period! It's a delicious and versatile table cheese from week 2 to 4.

Regarding the straw, I may have to find a new source. My last order was from a reputable NYC cheese monger and it began displaying pathogenic behavior (even though generally speaking straw is a safety measure against such behavior - a function which it has done well until now). It started with receding PC and increased amounts of geo in the bloomy cheese and continued on with glowing colors on my washed rinds. I thought that I might have screwed up the straw, over used it or stored it in a bad place. Yesterday I met the cheesemonger and told him that I need to get new straw and he said "me too, we had to throw away all that French straw because it was infected with something" - he then went on to describe the exact problems I was having... so now I am looking for new straw and I will post when I find a replacement for it.  It's too bad because it's really nice to have as it control pathogens and moisture and lands the cheese a nice grassy character. Use pine, poplar or spruce shavings in the meantime.

[mcfly]

This is very interesting, so instead of using 50% Geo and 50% PC, I use say 30% Geo, 60% PC and 10% Blines?

Also, when you say I should rub them, I do this until the white penicillin coating starts to take effect and then simply pat down as it grows?

I'm using the crottin recipe from 'Making Artisan Cheese' by Tim Smith. It does say to add Geo to it but he doesn't mention anything about patting it down so I just left it. By the sounds of it I should have reduced the humidity after the penicillin takes effect.

You mention cheese yeast? I'm very new to this so Id have to read up on this..

Thanks again !

[iratherfly]

Yes, this is a good mixture. I deally you want one part PC to one part mixture, and the mixture to be made of 3 equal parts of Geo, Yeast and B.Linens, or just purchase PLA culture instead.
The rubbing is very light, just to "infect" the entire rind with the mold all around. The patting is light too and should just sort of flatten the high growth of PC. (Which PC and Geo are you using?)

I find Tim Smith's recipe a bit lacking. The traditional recipe is good and easy to master quickly.  Have you tasted a French Crottin before?

Traditional method

• Bring milk to 72F and combine thoroughly the Calcium Chloride (1/8 tsp diluted in 1/3 cup of clean filtered water per each 1 gallon milk in your recipe)
• Inoculate it with starter culture such as MM100 (1/8 tsp per 1-2 gal). You can add the PC and geo or PLA now or in a spray later (1/8 tsp of each for every 1-2 gal of milk). Wait 5 minutes to reconstitute and then mix thoroughly and gently in the milk without creating too many air bubbles
• Add the rennet - use 4 drops (1/16th of a teaspoon) in 1/3 cup clean filtered water. Combine gently but thoroughly without incorporating bubbles. Do so in less than 30 seconds
• Put a lid on it and wait 18-24 hours in room temp. The curd is ready when it is pulling from the sides of the pot and/or has visible cracks going through it horizontally. A good sign that it has reached the correct acidity is the presense of 1/2" layer of whey on top of it
• Ladle it gently into cheesecloth and hang it or put it in the colander. Drain it for 12 hours
• Mold it into your Crottin molds and pack it tight. Let it drain in room temp for 24 additional hours. Turn the cheese in the mold or turn the mold upside down on a cheese draining mat half way through ONLY IF YOU CAN and it's not too soft that it will crush or spill out
• Remove cheese from molds. If it is still too wet and does not want to come out don't force it, just give it 6-12 more hours
• Salt the cheese tops and bottoms with kosher salt flakes. The correct salting should leave about 3% of salt by weight on the cheese. It seems salty but much of it will drain during the osmosis
• Dry it in room temp for 24 additional hours (or in the cave, uncovered and not in a box for 36-48 hours)
• Place in aging container and cover partially to make an 85%-90% moisture in the box (not 100%, not 70%... you should see light beads of water but not enough to spill on the cheese from the lid. Cover the box more and more as the box dries over the next few days to maintain the same moisture). Age 14-21 days and turn/pat every day or two. Ready to eat on day 14. Move to refrigerator in a container than can slightly breath. It may be better and drier on day 21. Begins going downhill at day 30 or 35, gradually turning into a grating cheese.  Having late blue mold on it is common, expected and perfectly edible. Don't be alarmed

This is classic and foolproof, very genuine crottin.

[mcfly]

This is great, I'll follow these steps for my next batch.. Thank you so much

Regarding the culture I'm using M4002 LY05 DCU starter, they also sell M4001 but I don't know the difference? My PC is Neige LYO 2D, my Geo is 17LY0 2 D.

I just noticed the un-opened Geo has a best before Jan '11 ? Its been kept in the freeze since I bought it last year, will this be ok or it it time to get rid of it?

Ive also found a packet of Coryebacteriae and on the back is says Geotrichum Candidum/Brevibacterium Linens ? Maybe this is some kind of mix ?

[Oude Kaas]

M4002, M4001 are all the same culture but different strains. They are used alternately in large cheese making facilities as phage control. No need to buy any M4001. Same thing applies to MM100 and MM101, MA011 and MA014 etc.