Author Topic: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard  (Read 9547 times)

arkc

  • Guest
Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« on: June 08, 2011, 02:11:13 AM »
I spoke with someone today that gave me some very definite answers about
my Epoisses 'hockey pucks'. 

He said that to be that hard, they had to have gotten VERY acid.  And this can
happen several ways.  1)  the amount of starter could be off, or  2) I could have let them
ripen too long.  He also said that it sounded as though they possibly weren't getting
enough humidity and had just plain dried up. 

Di scourageing but I have hope.  If I had managed a good rind development, then the
next batch, which I can fix,  will be good. 

I did find the problem,  the recipe I was using wasn't taking into consideration the fact
that I am using fairly fresh raw.  I should have been using half the starter.
 
Well, tomorrow is cheese making day for me.  I guess I'll see.  My new PH meter
will also be delivered tomorrow....Hope it works.

annie

arkc

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 02:51:53 AM »
I'm replying to myself!!

I just opened one of my B.Lin hockey pucks.  Verrrrrrrrry interesting.  It's not
dry, it's just solid.  But with a great flavor.  And it's beautiful.  The orange has
moved toward the center of the cheese.  It's really pretty.  And I think it would
be good with a crusty piece of sourdough and a home made beer like my son
makes.

annie

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 03:59:31 AM »
How large is your "puck"? form factor has a lot to do with this! It ages totally different if the size is too small or too large and you need to  adjust for that.

As for the acidity probe, eh... I am not too sure; lactic and semi lactic curds are as acidic as you get. 20 hours in the vat/pot and you can easily have 4.5pH which is what's needed for them to coagulate properly.  Getting hard cheese from over-acidified milk/curd is very true on semi-hard and semi-soft rennet-coagulated cheeses.
My suggestion for your next trial is to make a larger cheese. Use yeast to de-acidify the surface faster (KL71 for example). Begin your wash 4-5 days after entering the cave and wash vigorously (in spite of how gentle the cheese is). It will create a more significant rind faster and trap the moisture in longer.  If you are using Marc or Grappa liquor, add it gradually to your washes. Start with no liquor at all, then add a bit the next time and so on, until you  wash with 75%-100% liquor (+3% salt of course).

Don't give up! Keep trying until you get it right!

arkc

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 04:44:54 AM »
Duh!  Yoav, of course I added the Grappa gradually. And the rind development
wasn't the problem....I had used over twice the starter that I needed and I let them
ripen WAY too long. 

But you are right about the size.  Someone else also suggested that maybe I try
a little larger size.  The last ones were too small.  I will be making over twice the
size tomorrow.  About the yeast, per PD, I was already adding 'pinches' of DH, CUM,
and MVA.

I'm glad to have you take an interest....I will try to post a photo of my pretty, and
fairly tasty,  hockey pucks.

annie

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2011, 06:04:12 AM »
I just find it weird because these are so acidic that they are difficult to over-acidify to that extant. I really think this is about affinage, form factor and moisture control.  If they were indeed so overly acidified you would have had hard time developing this crazy orange rind -which you have successfully developed.

IMHO I would say use less yeasts and cultures. Cheese needs a bit focus and cultures don't need that many other cultures to augment them or compete with them over the same nutrients; doing so only serves to weaken the effect of each one and often one would out-compete the other killing it completely and slowing down development in the process.  This isn't just slowing down affinage schedule but also reduces the timely breakdown of proteins and fats which makes your cheese texture what it is.

Technically this cheese should work without adding any of these fancy yeasts or overly sophisticated starter culture. Epoisses relies on the existing yeasts from the Marc liquor. If you must, DH is good for this cheese, as well as R2R (but not together, pick one). CUM and MVA do not belong with this cheese -in my opinion at least.  You should really be able to make this cheese with very simple cultures (sat, MM100 starter, Geo 13 and a wash of marc+water+salt, maybe a pinch of B.Linen like SR3) -nothing else. It should work.  Then you can deviate one culture at a time to see if any of them can improve your basic Epoisses' flavor, aroma or texture.

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2011, 09:48:14 AM »
Quote from: iratherfly
Cheese needs a bit focus and cultures don't need that many other cultures to augment them or compete with them over the same nutrients; doing so only serves to weaken the effect of each one and often one would out-compete the other killing it completely and slowing down development in the process.

Yoav, I'm not clear on where you're getting this.  Taking surface ripened cheeses, these cheeses have literally hundreds of species, subspecies, strains working on them all the time - and here, I mean, adventitious flora; forget added cultures.  If what you're arguing held true, these cheeses would be bland "nothings" of microbial soup.  Just one example  - from a study of 4 surface-ripened cheeses:

Quote
A total of 194 bacterial isolates and 187 yeast isolates from the surfaces of four Irish farmhouse smear-ripened cheeses were identified at the midpoint of ripening using pulsed-field gel electrophoresis (PFGE), repetitive sequence-based PCR, and 16S rRNA gene sequencing for identifying and typing the bacteria and Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy and
mitochondrial DNA restriction fragment length polymorphism (mtDNA RFLP) analysis for identifying and typing the yeast. The yeast microflora was very uniform, and Debaryomyces hansenii was the dominant species in the four cheeses. Yarrowia lipolytica was also isolated in low numbers from one cheese. The bacteria were highly diverse, and 14 different species, Corynebacterium casei, Corynebacterium variabile, Arthrobacter arilaitensis, Arthrobacter sp., Microbacterium gubbeenense, Agrococcus sp. nov., Brevibacterium linens, Staphylococcus epidermidis, Staphylococcus equorum, Staphylococcus saprophyticus, Micrococcus luteus, Halomonas venusta, Vibrio sp., and Bacillus sp., were identified on the four cheeses. Each cheese had a more or less unique microflora with four to nine species on its surface. However, two bacteria, C. casei and A. arilaitensis, were found on each cheese.

Diversity at the strain level was also observed, based on the different PFGE patterns and mtDNA RFLP profiles of the dominant bacterial and yeast species. None of the ripening cultures deliberately inoculated onto the surface were reisolated from the cheeses. This study confirms the importance of the adventitious, resident microflora in the ripening of smear cheeses.

I think the affinage process is a lot more about "fighting it out" among a myriad of flora, a complex interaction, metabolism and lysis among a ton of microbes, than you argue.  If this were cooking, then I'd agree - but these are complex, living systems, not inert ingredients in a recipe, you know?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 09:59:41 AM by ArnaudForestier »
- Paul

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2011, 10:18:36 PM »
Let me be very general and not go into deep science for a second. It's the longest post I ever wrote here but this debate has been going on in the forums for a while and my view is very particular about it.

I have seen too many cheesemakers lately that have been very "culture happy", dropping their entire culture library into the milk and perusing exotic cultures almost competitively before they master cutting curd or understanding the activity of these cultures. To me this is a grand departure from cheesemaking for the sake of great culinary art into the world of science or performing "bacterial gardening" on soil made of curd. Too often this doesn't result in better cheese and creates expectations, disappointment and confusion. It's a little like doing aerobatics in an aircraft before you learned to takeoff and land and surely before you learned to assess if the aircraft and rules of aerodynamics are capable of doing what you are asking it to do. Doesn't mean that you can't learn to fly for the sake of aerobatics, it just means you have to follow a structured path to get there, and you will be fine.

There is no doubt that a cheese or any cultured product for that matter contains a diversity of living organisms, acids and enzymes in some harmony or another. This is also why raw milk that is still rich with the variety of these makes better cheese.  Cooking is no different. I remember once reading that there are over 250 different acids in carrot which are known to men and many that are yet to be isolated.  The character however; the appearance, aroma, texture, flavor and stability are entirely dependent on the balance between all of these, not on the fact that they are all present.

When we introduce cultures to milk, the idea is to over-promote a particular character over another by super-propagating that type of bacteria, giving it a head start -thus controlling the end result.  We can put different "leaders" for different stages of the cheesemaking - starter bacteria for example is not used in the same way and timing as rind bacteria so they seldom conflict.  The problem begins when we put in too many "leaders" to be in charge of the same aspect of cheese at once. They each "lead" their own way and end up fighting each other.  That could happen by stealing each others' nutrients (remember these are inoculated in far higher count than that naturally occurring in the milk) or fight each other as flavors in your mouth because there are only so many yeasty, citrucy, buttery, stinky chalky, sharp or nutty characteristics which human has sensory capacity to process at once and many of them just don't work together.

Cheesemaking has always been about promoting what you have. Acidifying milk of a particular breed of particular animal eating a particular feed in a particular region and doing so in particular conditions, circumstances and reasoning - will give you very particular cheese. Culture mixes are a recent invention that is meant to mimic these particular variables outside of their natural habitat, so you can make Beaufort without having milk from cows feeding on the Savoie vegetation that age on spruce planks infected with the local soil's cylindrocarpon. It allows you to make Roquefort without actually owning a natural stone cave in the French Aveyron area. It enables you to make Reblochon without being stuck in a limestone basement of a 15th century monastery for 6 weeks.  The principles and techniques of cheesemaking however remain the same and cultures are used to augment what is basically a good cheese to begin with - not to replace the basic cheesemaking or affinage skill (or to land character to a depleted poor quality milk).

This isn't something I just made up. It's an industry best practice to first make up a basic good cheese by way of fabrication and affinage and only then to refine the results with slight bacterial modifications, one at a time. You will seldom see commercial artisanal cheesemakers pouring cultures galore into their milk. It makes it impossible to find out which culture did what and how it interacted with other cultures and phages. It's a bit like playing all of your favorite songs at once, really loud. Or, like painting a picture of the sky by loading up a blank canvas with all of the most vivid colors you can find in your color swatch. Surely you will draw the sky first, paint it blue next and then use and mix other pigments to perfect it and give it proportion, depth and aesthetic qualities. 

That is not to say that some cheese have a rather complex array of inoculated cultures in them.  However... if you must put 6 starter cultures, 2 types of yeasts, 2 types of geo, 2 types of B.Linen and 3 types of PC than either you are
1. Making a spectacular cheese that took you at least a year of trial and error to figure out how to balance and you started it with good technique and , very simple cultures that you added up on in trial and error
or
2.
You are using all of the microbiological assets in your disposal to apply some type of flavor and character into milk that is so poor that in no way can it naturally yield any flavorful cheese (as large scale industrial cheesemakers do)

In Annie's case what I am saying is simply - first make an Epoisses. Then revisit the bacterial makeup of it to make it spectacular. Having a complex array of bacterium on a platform that isn't good enough *yet* is not going to save it but just serve to confuse the cheesemaker and the cheese. People have been making great Epoisses for hundreds of years before they could purchase DVI cultures. Annie is obviously experience enough with her other cheese to be able to master this one rather quickly.
(and I don't understand why would she need to increase the candida utilis, debaryomyces hansenii, staphylococcus xylosus count in her curd when her issue is with the paste and not the wash/rind?  This by the way explains the strong redness of her wash and what seems to be lack of geo re-growth and with it possibly the reduced proteolytic activity on the paste, but we will never know the probe with certainty unless we try these cultures one by one in different batches rather than in a single cheese.)

Now don't get me wrong, of course it's okay that our urban hobbyist cheese relies on SOME cultures, it's even good, safe and traditional. let me just add that I love interesting cultures and use them to create fascinating cheeses, but I am no scientist and this isn't a lab. It's ARTisanal cheesemaking which in my view should produce delightful cheese with exciting flavor, texture aroma and presentation -without being overly dependent on myriad of exotic cultures. Then it could be easily refined by testing other cultural designs methodically until it's spectacular.  Does that make sense?

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2011, 11:41:46 PM »
Yoav, I think we need to clear up what it is we're actually talking about.  What prompted this, for me, drew from your comment in another thread, mirrored here:

Quote from: iratherfly
First off, if you could have all these things grow at once on your cheese it would be bland and confused in character.

-I just cannot agree; it doesn't happen in nature.  If it did, as I show above, with hundreds of species, strains, etc. on cheeses not even inoculated with any DVI, much less several, then no cheese found in nature would be remotely interesting - "they'd all be bland and confused in character."  Flora ecology, microbial interplay doesn't work like that.  At least, this isn't my understanding.  I'm not a microbiologist, and I certainly could be wrong.  Perhaps Sailor, or Pav, or Francois could opine?

Now, if we're talking about alchemy, what I call, "playing with your food,"  yes, I do tend to agree.  Allow the natural expression of the raw ingredient - here, milk - speak for itself as much as possible.  And no amount of alchemy will turn a lousy milk into an extraordinary cheese.

That said, I again say - if any of us are using a blend, none of us are minimalists.  You've expressed your love for using ARN.  ARN is a blend of 2 different strains of linens (an ivory and an orange), a. nicotinae, and geo.

How is that different from choosing and simply adding in those 2 different strains of linens, MGE (a. nicotinae) and Geo 15?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 11:46:51 PM by ArnaudForestier »
- Paul

arkc

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2011, 11:49:34 PM »
I just got home and don't have time to fully read your post.  I will get to it when I return.

Quote
I have seen too many cheesemakers lately that have been very "culture happy", dropping their entire culture library into the milk and perusing exotic cultures almost competitively before they master cutting curd or understanding the activity of these cultures.

However Yoav, I don't think that this is a good description of Peter Dixon.  And he is the
one who suggested the trio of extra cultures that I used. 

After cutting the 'pucks', I now know that one of his observations was correct....It was
very very much too small to age that length of time without proper humidity.  The
cheese was NOT brittle Or dried out.  It had simply aged too long and had solidified.
The texture, for a harder cheese, was lovely and the flavor was as good as it could
be.  But as I said before, it was too salty.   But that of course would be simply from
losing too much moisture and body....If you had cooked as long, and as much as I
had, you would know that salt only gets stronger.  I am not insulting you,  I am
simply twice as old as you are and the extra years have been spent cooking and
teaching cooking.

annie


linuxboy

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2011, 11:56:11 PM »
Quote
He said that to be that hard, they had to have gotten VERY acid. 
In my experience, acidity and moisture, while interrelated, are not causally linked. Meaning if your cheese was 4.0 or 6.0 or anywhere in between, it doesn't have THAT much to do with moisture post make, or final moisture.

I can site several dozen studies to support this contention, that controls relevant to final moisture amount are only weakly related to acidity at best.

Moisture is about milk PF, set time, temperature, curd size, and stir schedule. Acidity is about calcium balance, starter selection, temp, and starter amounts.

Quote
1)  the amount of starter could be off
Somewhat irrelevant per above.

Quote
He also said that it sounded as though they possibly weren't getting
enough humidity and had just plain dried up. 
This is almost certainly your root cause based on the descriptions.

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 05:33:20 AM »
Annie -as you see above, I too suggested you make a larger cheese.  Peter Dixon is a brilliant cheesemaker and even in his own recipes he doesn't go crazy with cultures. Usually he mixes a couple of starter mixes so he has 4-6 strains total and he does the entire affinage with spray or morge of rather focused character and high compatibility.  The culture answer he gave you would perfectly fit the problem of not getting a desirable wash results but do not fit the question of hard or chalky paste issues that you have presented here. (which as Linuxboy and myself here suggested are probably unrelated to acidity).

As for your other comment, I don't really see how our age difference takes away from my culinary education, my cooking and cheesemaking experience, or my travels around the world in pursuit of foods. Trust me I have aged enough cheeses, cured enough sausages, made enough pickles and cooked more than enough food -and was educated by enough world class chefs to understand the principles of moisture control and salinity timing control methodologies, even at my young age of 38.

Paul, you put it together very nicely. Perhaps we are talking about the same thing after all? You gave as an example my love of ARN and you hit the nail on the head with this one. ARN is a blend of very compatible cultures that not only don't compete with each other but TOGETHER bring about a specific set of characteristics common to several types of bloomy and washed rind cheeses and that is exactly what I call focus. (Heck, it's like salt pepper and lemon on a fish only  more particular, say Malaysian long peppers, fleur de sel and meyer lemon..)
My problem is when people try to blend ARN with PLA in a cheese that has MA4001 and Thermo B starters and then they add CUM and DH to it, and top it off with a wash of Geo 13 and 17 and PC-VS with PC-Neige, maybe some P.Roq and mycodore too, why not? That to me is a confused cheese that cannot amount to any one particular flavor.  As I said, of course many of these strains would be in the milk (or cave) anyway but the extra amplification should only be given to a few cultures that work together in harmony. PLA is a beautiful culture that seldom needs another yeast, but sometimes you want to add a darker B.Linen to it if you wash with it or a pinch extra geo if you need a thicker rind than what it offered on a bloomy type. PC-Neige hardly ever needs more PC strains with it (it grows high and aggressively) but you can add SAM3 to stabilize it a bit and cause secondary flora with similar character and possibly help deter mucor if that's a problem you are having). Geo13 hardly ever need also Geo15/17 and I would not add an MD culture to Flora Danica because the increased eye formation that looks so good on paper will mean that the cheese will actually taste like cheap butter...  You get the idea.
The design principles of picking compatible flavors, aromas and textures is the same as in cooking (or painting, music, writing etc.)  The only difference is that here you have to remember who fights who and at what timing and conditions they activate and deactivate - which makes cheese such a fun challenge but also requires some calculated pre-planning.

At the end of the day however, I think you and I agree that first and foremost you need to let the milk speak for itself.  There is that old saying I mentioned in the other thread that "You can't make good cheese without good milk, but having good milk doesn't mean you'll make good cheese".

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 10:52:27 AM »
Thanks, Yoav - I knew we're on the same page philosophically, and I better understand what you're driving at in terms of a willy-nilly approach to tossing in DVI.  I agree. 

- Paul

Offline Boofer

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Lakewood, Washington
  • Posts: 5,015
  • Cheeses: 344
  • Contemplating cheese
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 02:16:32 PM »
Thank you all for an invigorating discussion.

It's unfortunate that this dialogue is relegated to this Epoisses thread for I believe a larger audience would do well to ponder the points and perspectives presented here.

This helps me focus more on what I am trying to achieve in my makes.

Sometimes it's good to be a lurker.  ;)

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 03:37:24 PM »
Sometimes it's good to be a lurker.  ;)

-Boofer-

I can't get the opening to Office Space out of my mind, now. ;D

Agree, Boof.  I'm just really grateful for the wealth of people here.  Always an insight into something new.
- Paul

arkc

  • Guest
Re: Answer to why my Epoisses types are hard
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 03:55:47 PM »
I think I can, I think I can,I think I can, I think I can.

Started a new Epoisses type yesterday.  I used MM100, B.Lin, and a pinch of the
trio ' MVA, DH, CUM'.  I made this one much larger, 1 gallon full Jersey to one
basket mold. 
Quote
Mix the culture in for 5 minutes. Wait 25 more minutes.
Add 2 ml single-strength rennet to 50 lb. milk.

This is from PD's website recipe for semi lactic types. I did just that had absolutely no
cream on top to worry about.  It will drain (and be flipped) for 20-28 hours.
At that point, I should know roughly how large each cheese will be.

More later,

annie