Author Topic: Mark's Reblochon - 061511  (Read 4820 times)

MarkShelton

  • Guest
Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« on: June 16, 2011, 04:42:33 AM »
I have to say, its been a VERY long time! Both since I've been on the forum, and since I made a cheese, but after resolving some personal affairs, I've decided to get back into the swing of things and continue where I left off - reblochon.

First of all, this is the first cheese I've made with the aid of a (dependable) pH meter, and it actually took a lot of the worry about critical timing out of the equation since I had pH goals instead of blindly following a stopwatch. Whether those goals were correct or not or any other suggestions are always appreciated.

Here's my procedure put simply: ripen raw milk with cultures to pH 6.45 at 88*. Rennet. Cut coarsely at floc x 5. Rest. Cut curd to corn/wheat-sized pieces. Scald to 92-94*, stirring. Drain whey and scoop curd at pH 6.2-6.3

Here's the actual make:
  • Start with 3 gal whole, raw milk at 89*, pH 6.66
  • Add:
    • 1/4 t MM100
    • 1/16 t TA062
    • 1/10 t Geo 17
    • 1/8 t KL-71
    Time 00:00
  • 3/4 Veg rennet tab @ pH 6.39 (questionable measurement) Time 01:34
  • Floc time 6 min. Cut curd into 1" cubes at ~floc x 4, 02:00, pH 6.48
  • Gently whisked curd into corn-sized pieces, 02:05
  • Scald to 92 - 94*, stirring until pH reached 6.28, 02:58
  • Settled curd and drained whey 03:16
  • Ladled curd into cheesecloth-lined moulds
  • Flipped at 10min, then another 20 min(adding weight), another 40 min(maintaining weight), finished press after 3.5 hr total mould time.
Cheese is presently air-drying before salt (2% dry rub by weight) and washing schedule.

Notes: I purchased all new cultures, but forgot to get new rennet. Veg rennet was over a year old, and I was afraid it would not coagulate at all, so I added extra. Apparently it was still perfectly fine, as floc was way too short. It was nice, however, to be able to see the pH dropping and adjust the temperature so that the pH would be at the right marker when the curd had expelled the right amount of moisture.
PH meter displayed "CAL" signal midway through the make. Next time calibrate before-hand.

Any pointers? I would especially be appreciative of pH guidance, culture amount/type, or anything I may have forgotten on my first cheese in over a year.

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 12:00:37 PM »
Mark, looks good to me, but whatever I say must be taken with a grain of salt.  Interesting to me how close our pH markers are - my last make was renneted at 6.45, and drained at 6.24.  You pulled after 3.5 hours - do you know what your terminal pH was?

Also, you indicate a floc x5 in your description, but in the process step 4, you indicate a x 4 - which was it?  We may be after a somewhat different moisture content - I cut 1/2" and go with a 4.5 multiplier.  Will be interesting to compare things, down the road.

- Paul

mtncheesemaker

  • Guest
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2011, 12:43:34 PM »
Hi Mark, nice to see you back.
Pam

MarkShelton

  • Guest
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2011, 12:54:58 PM »
@ArnaudForestier - Well, it's because I borrowed the markers from your "Chronicles" post. Seemed like you knew what you were doing and had some sage advice from some other members, so I went with it. I just salted the wheels and the pH was ~5.15 (though I still haven't calibrated my meter).
I cut the curd at floc x 4, on paper at least. The actual floc time was approximate, and may have been even less. When I spun the bowl at 4min, it was free; at 6min it was gelled.
I would love to see my surface come out as well as yours! Your pics look great.

@Pam - Thanks!

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2011, 12:58:37 PM »
Hahah - that's funny, Mark, because your thread of some time ago strongly influenced me!  Glad we're helping each other. :)

I'm looking forward to the next several makes, because I got the true reb molds from Glengarry; would like to achieve a good surface knit, get that wonderful, even blanket of red with white dusting.  Looking forward to comparing notes.

Paul
- Paul

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2011, 07:48:12 AM »
Nice to see you again Mark, been a long time!

MarkShelton

  • Guest
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 12:39:02 PM »
Aging notes:
I let it air dry for 2 days, since it was quite moist on the outside after the first day. Humidity has been high, and letting it dry longer will help prevent slip skin (I hope).
Next 3 days, dunked in a 3% brine with a pinch of SR3 B. linens. Storing in aging containers at 90-95% RH at 59*
Washing with brine solution every other day.
Day 7 - Geo just starting to show.

@Iratherfly - Hi, its good to see you too!

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 04:37:42 PM »
Mark, FWIW, my previous rebs were washed pretty frequently -  dunking x3 days, then every other day for a while, then 3x week.  I did develop slip skin. 

This time, I'm trying to encourage a bit more of a delicate dance among Time, linens, and PC.  I washed these, as you did, for 3 days worth of dunking, then just a few more days of every other day.  I then left them alone; PC matting came on, left it be for about 8 days, then washed again.  Since then, I've really just watched them, and washed them very infrequently - trying to encourage linens development, but not too much, too fast.  I'm a month in, and unlike my previous batches, no slip skin, though there is good linens development throughout.  I plan on doing no further washing, and am hoping for latter-stage dusting of geo, as Yoav has mentioned and as I can see, from many reb pics in the books.

I broke into one of the wheels, just to see what I am getting, after a mere month (the book French Cheeses mentions anywhere from 2 weeks to a month affinage - seems crazy, to me, but that's what they indicate). 



Very, very pleased, at this point.  Pretty wonderful result, knock on wood.  Rich taste, great balance of linens, mold, salt, butteriness.  The paste is too firm, but I expected that.  If at 2 months, it's still not quite that soft, pliant paste I'm shooting for, I'll likely move to 5x multiplier from 4.5. 

Anyway, FYI as an experience point, if it's helpful.
- Paul

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2011, 07:35:05 PM »
How many days is this one? 45 or so? (looks like it). Looks like this paté has room to still get softer.

One thing to look at in respect to paté texture is the form factor. Reblochon is rather flat and it needs it in order to age to a goo evenly all the way to the core. Proportionally speaking, if you have two wheels like the one pictured, you should have enough material to actually make 3 wheels of proper height. (in other words, it's about 150% of normal height).

Offline Boofer

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Lakewood, Washington
  • Posts: 5,015
  • Cheeses: 344
  • Contemplating cheese
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2011, 12:15:43 AM »
I'm up for trying my first Reblochon but I'm confused as to what else to add besides a Meso and Thermo & LH (in place of the Thermo C).

I've seen geo, B. linens, P. candidum, and KL71 in use in different recipes, but not all together. Is there a standard basic recipe out there?

Is there agreement on which of those four to combine? I have a pretty good idea what the others contribute, but what does the KL71 bring to the party?

Hey, I have raw milk...and I'm not afraid to use it!  :)

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2011, 11:12:36 AM »
How many days is this one? 45 or so? (looks like it).


No, as I mentioned, it's at one month, in the pic.

Looks like this paté has room to still get softer.


Yes it does, and that was expected, as I mentioned.

One thing to look at in respect to paté texture is the form factor. Reblochon is rather flat and it needs it in order to age to a goo evenly all the way to the core. Proportionally speaking, if you have two wheels like the one pictured, you should have enough material to actually make 3 wheels of proper height. (in other words, it's about 150% of normal height).


Yep.  I know the dimensions aren't right for reb, as these are in cam molds, but I just wanted to get going on some softer cheeses (though as none of these wheels were any taller than a reb, I don't really feel there would be a significant delay in paste proteolysis dynamics, etc.).  I do now have dedicated rev moulds and followers, and am looking forward to the next makes.

Quote from: Boofer
what does the KL71 bring to the party?


As a yeast, it helps de-acidify the surface, prepping it for linens (along with the geo).  I use DH, for the same purpose.  I know Pav has described them both as having similar functions, with KL71 perhaps lending a bit more of a fruity note (lactones/esters, and other aromatics).  Basically, my impression is that DH is perhaps a bit “cleaner” than KL71, in terms of these aromatic pathways and degradation products.  Not that “clean” is better – just personal taste.  For me, with reb, I know I'm seeking a pretty direct preservation of spring milk, and so keep the lines a bit simpler than, say, an autumn make.  As I move into autumn, with reminiscences of preserved foods – dried fruits, for instance – I will likely play with esterification and aromatics more.  That includes making Vacherin Mont D'Or.

As to standard recipes, I can only offer that I used  mtnpam's and sueVT's as wonderful starting points, and was informed by Mark's earlier chronicle as well. I also consult the reblochon AOC (it's in French only). 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 11:38:42 AM by ArnaudForestier »
- Paul

Offline Boofer

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Lakewood, Washington
  • Posts: 5,015
  • Cheeses: 344
  • Contemplating cheese
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2011, 12:18:57 PM »
Looks like this paté has room to still get softer. Reblochon is rather flat and it needs it in order to age to a goo evenly all the way to the core. Proportionally speaking, if you have two wheels like the one pictured, you should have enough material to actually make 3 wheels of proper height. (in other words, it's about 150% of normal height).
Viewing that video on making the style, it wasn't gooey. One of the last shots was of the lady enjoying a sliced triangle of it. Is it the style of cheese that is open to many interpretations?

As to standard recipes, I can only offer that I used  mtnpam's and sueVT's as wonderful starting points, and was informed by Mark's earlier chronicle as well. 
Yes, those were my initial jumping-off points, but because they seemed to diverge significantly, my confusion arose.

I guess I'll lay down a basic blend to start with and proceed as with the Tommes, adjusting a bit on the next pass to see what that gives me.

Still, the question remains: gooey or not.  Is this supposed to mimic another cam, brie, d'afinnois, tallegio, etc. in texture?

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

Offline ArnaudForestier

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Madison, Wisconsin
  • Posts: 1,546
  • Cheeses: 45
  • Default personal text
    • Paul's FB
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2011, 02:18:59 PM »
Boof, when I think gooey, I think Vacherin Mont D'Or.  I don't really think of reblochon, though I think the field of play is open to interpretation.  For me, I know I'm seeking something I'd call more, just really soft and yielding.  Like you, I used the two recipes above as starting points, thought about it a bit, and adaptedbased on what I thought made sense. 

- Paul

Offline Boofer

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Lakewood, Washington
  • Posts: 5,015
  • Cheeses: 344
  • Contemplating cheese
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2011, 07:19:52 PM »
Thanks, Paul. That gives me a little more sense of direction.

I had already decided to go with slightly modified proportions of all you referenced in that link. Yeah, I remember that thread now.

I'll be spooning into small Kadova molds. I'm hoping the curd doesn't stick to the netting. Should be fun.  ???

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

iratherfly

  • Guest
Re: Mark's Reblochon - 061511
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2011, 07:41:35 PM »
Viewing that video on making the style, it wasn't gooey. One of the last shots was of the lady enjoying a sliced triangle of it. Is it the style of cheese that is open to many interpretations?

Boof, when I think gooey, I think Vacherin Mont D'Or.  I don't really think of reblochon, though I think the field of play is open to interpretation.  For me, I know I'm seeking something I'd call more, just really soft and yielding.  Like you, I used the two recipes above as starting points, thought about it a bit, and adaptedbased on what I thought made sense.

Maybe goo wasn't the right phrase to use, it's not a runny cheese and also not as gooey as a Vacherin Mont d'Or (Yummm!) but it is certainly a very soft cheese. Softer than Camembert or Reblochon. Soft enough to make the shape collapse and become round. The paste is no harder than a Brie de Meaux but has a more sticky/stretchy/elastic consistency so sorry if my phrasing was not on target.

I don't see Reblochon as open to interpertation, however in different seasons and with different aging they could differ from each other as much as Camemberts do.  The French also shop for their Reblochon the way we shop for fruits. Some like it more ripe than others. They sink their thumb into it in the market, then if it feels like the desired hardness they would often flip open a lid in the wrapper to smell it. This is why the cheese is marketed in different stages of affinage even though the manufacturing is strictly the same under AOC rules.  The AOC gives *some* flexibility, for example it enables the cheesemakers to decide whether they want to salt it by hand or brine and whether they want to slightly press it and turn immediately or allow for a short natural drain and knotting before the first flip and only then press, etc.  Even the many non-AOC versions of Reblochon don't interpert it too much out of guidelines (the biggest interpretations are of course pasteurizing the milk or making it out of the Savoie region). Good examples I've tried are the Le Delice du Jura:

Or Kuntener (which is Swiss if I remember correctly):


By the way, notice the texture difference between these two - this is the texture difference I mentioned above which the French can find in the market between Reblochon AOC wheels which were made the same way. Just a matter of aging. Each of these two cheeses can be obtained in the other cheese's texture.

Sorry Paul, I skipped some of your earlier posts and asked questions you've already answered.  By the way, I agree with you about the KL71 and the DH though they both should do a good job. Hmmm... I wonder how this will work with R2R.  I am going to post photos in the next few days of the craziest washed rind you have ever seen. The cheese with the R2R came out as red as a fire engine.  There is no B.Linen in the wash of Reblochon so maybe it will take it down a notch
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 07:51:23 PM by iratherfly »