Author Topic: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet  (Read 2555 times)

Offline Nitai

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Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« on: June 22, 2011, 03:51:00 PM »
So, despite having made yogurt multiple times per week for the past 2.5 years, I still have never perfected a recipe. I want it to be thick and mild (don't we all?). I am too lazy to denature the proteins on a regular basis. I do not like, and want to discontinue use of, powdered milk. What I am attracted to now is rennet. I tried one batch but it was a disaster. I am thinking the process needs to be done at a lower temp for the rennet to act properly? Like Fromage Blanc temps? any ideas

I have also tried potato flour and tapioca flour, none of which I am crazy about. I have not tried pectin.


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Offline McCreamy

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 04:04:43 PM »
To get mine thicker, I just drain it through a cloth after I am done making it for an hour or so (depending how thick you want it). I use a rubber spatula to keep scraping the yogurt closest to the cloth so that it all gets a chance to drain. I get thick wonderful yogurt every time. My husband tells me that this last batch reminds him of frosting, texture and taste...maybe I did put a little too much sugar in it! :)

Offline newcheemomma

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 07:06:52 PM »
Howdy! Just made my first two delicious quarts of yoghurt and one batch of Labneh (yougurt cheese). I added 2 tablespoons of pwd milk to the batch as it was being inoculated...stirred well..placed in clean quart mason jars and placed jars in my crock pot covered with a thick beach towel for 14 hours. After that, I let it drain in quality cheese cloth for 2 hours and it was FAB! Thick creamy and mild. The Labneh I let drain for a total of 6 hours and it set up like cream cheese. Delicious! HTH
Mauricia

Offline Nitai

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2011, 07:16:04 PM »
thank you both, but draining is not quite my solution. for starters, we sell yogurt, and to strain it would ruin the presentation (nice cream-top). Perhaps I should consider it for our own yogurt, but really I would prefer to just get the culturing down to a science. I have gone months reusing the same culture very successfully, but it seems so random; sometimes I catch a batch that seems to have all the right qualities and I can reproduce it, and other times I don't...

Offline Gustav

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 02:52:59 AM »
I used to have the same problem in the past. I used stabilisers, gelatine, milk powder....
At the end of the day, the problem was that I added sugar before fermentiation (this caused the cultures to feed on the added sugar instead of the Lactose in the milk) and that my incubation temp was too low. Now I heat milk to 87'C-90'C for 30 minutes, cool down to about 30'C-40'C, Add my cultures (Streptococcus thermophilus & Lactobacillus Bulgaricus) & incubate at 42'C for 7 hours.(I prefer 7 hours as longer than that it starts to get tangy, but the longer it incubates, the thicket it gets).  After 7 hours I place it in the fridge for 8-10 hours, add my fruit pulp/syrup (the sugar that I used to add, I heat up with some water to make a syrup & cool down), and leave in fridge again for 8-10 hours before consuming. I find that by following this, I get nice thick, creamy yogurt with a smooth texture!

Hope it helps.
Melkman se kind.


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Online steffb503

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 04:59:10 AM »
Nitai,
What is your procedure?
What type of milk are you using?
I get consistently smooth, creamy and thick goat milk yogurt.
Heat to 180 hold for 20 mins cool to 115. Add culture, Keep at 115 for 6-8 hours then refrigerate.

Offline Nitai

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 10:05:56 AM »
Thank you both, but what both of you are referring to is denaturing the proteins. I did this for some time and got good results, but my schedule simply does not allow me to keep up with it. I have to make yogurt too often and in too large of batches. Further, we use raw Jersey milk that we want to keep raw.

Offline birdsongmilkmaid

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 10:55:34 AM »
I make a 2 gallon batch of yogurt for our family every second evening. I heat the milk to 180 degrees, then cool it to 120 degrees before adding the starter culture, so it is definitely not a raw milk yogurt. I just pour the milk into the pot, put it on stove with the burner set to medium, and leave it for 45 minutes. It is generally within 10 to 15 degrees of what I want it, but on the cool side. I've figured out that if it is 10 degrees too cool I just set the timer for another 5 minutes and the milk will be ready; 15 degrees and I set the timer for 7 minutes. When the milk is heated to the right temperature, I just set it on a metal cooling rack on the counter and leave it there until bedtime. By then it is the right temperature, and I put the starter culture in and pop it in the oven that has been warmed to 200 degrees. (I turn the oven off before I put the milk in so that I don't cook the yogurt. Also, on the rare occasion when the milk is a bit too warm for the starter culture and I want to get to bed I just put the pot in my kitchen sink that has been filled with cold tap water for a few minutes.)

I've also made raw milk yogurt, by heating the milk to the proper temperature (110 degrees) in a warm water bath in my kitchen sink. I then added the starter culture and popped it into the oven next to my pot of regular yogurt. Both yogurts are a bit on the runny side the next morning, but after cooling to between 0 and 5 degrees in the fridge they are thick, creamy, and tasty.

Naomi

Offline Gustav

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 11:11:19 AM »
I use raw jersey milk as well. Do you mean that you don't heat the milk up to 87'C-90'C  ?
What is your procedure then? Just remember, there's no shortcuts to quality, & that should be something that you strive for. Not "fake" thickened yogurts. Then maybe you should try to get a way to make more at a time.  How many litres do you make at a time?

I only have a gas stove & 2x 20 Litre pots, so I do about 36Litres a day, but I can push it to double that as it takes me about 4 hours to make it before it goes into the incubator. Is the problem that you don't have enough space to ferment? Or is it that you dont have enough time in the day to make it?
Melkman se kind.

Online steffb503

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 12:37:46 PM »
I have made thick yogurt from raw goat milk but it is not always thick. I find if I am going to sell it it needs to be consistent.
I think there are sometimes other bacteria in the raw milk, not necessarily bad bacteria, that inhibit the yogurt cultures.
You may need to use stronger cultures that can compete with the natural bacterias.


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Offline Nitai

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011, 05:54:13 PM »
My problem is time. Making yogurt is often a last minute afterthought for me after a full day of work. Denaturing takes too long and makes the product not raw. I am hoping to thicken using rennet. Does anyone have experience with this? Linuxboy, I am flashing my LB signal into the sky calling for your help!  :D

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2011, 06:13:52 PM »
You want to keep it raw, and without additives? You could use rennet, that would help stabilize the lactic gel. But the problem you run into then, even with high solids in the milk, is it will have whey on top of the creamline. It can work if you use a really tiny amount, just enough to stabilize the lactic curd. There are a few vegetarian rennets that can withstand the heat. What do you use now? Mucor-based?

I tend to prefer a 3-pronged approach, similar to commercial manufacturers (who actually use more like a 5-prong approach). One, I like using a culture that will give me an extremely thick set. Two, I like to add a small amount of something better mouthfeel and stability to prevent the lactic gel from separating. Usually, this is carageenan that I make from irish moss (just boil the moss, it makes natural carageenan). And three, I add something to help retain water. This is often agar, and at times rennet.

This is when the milk is thin. Much of the time, solids are so high for me, I get a thick set with only culture.

Another option you could try is to make a hybrid product. Preculture with LM from danisco until pH drops to ~6.0, then add in a starter slurry that has the usual thermo mix, and heat to thermo temps. You will get a better set that way by using the chaining properties of LM. In this approach, flavor will be more buttery.
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Offline Nitai

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2011, 07:25:03 PM »
Ahh, Pav, comforting and intimidating all at once. Thank you.

I have been using the ABY-2C from Dairy Connection. I also recently got their double strength organic veg rennet. The whey rising to the top would not disturb me if I could get the yogurt I want as I can just pour the whey off. I am not opposed to using agar agar, but I don't think I want to get into boiling moss, unless it was a once per month kind of thing and then just kept in the fridge.

Regarding using two cultures. I am not opposed to that, but what do you think it would mean practically: Heat to meso temps, add LM, wait ___ minutes for PH 6.0, heat to thermo temps and proceed as usual? I am concerned how long the initial wait will be for the PH drop.

Sorry to be so picky with all the help, it's just if I want to adopt a method that I stick with it needs to be fairly simple at this point. Thank you to everyone!

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2011, 07:41:25 PM »
Quote
but I don't think I want to get into boiling moss, unless it was a once per month kind of thing and then just kept in the fridge.
Or once a year. It's like making pectin. You make a bunch and store it and use when needed. You can buy carageenan, too, but be careful about the type you buy. Some is way overprocessed. Can also try arrow root as a thickener.

For the dual culture approach, you would wait for 2-3 hours at meso temps. I'm not sure this is practical for you, though. Yogurt should be easy.

I guess what it comes down to is that it's really tough to be consistent with culture alone without denaturing. You need to add something to help it along, to make sure it's thick. So maybe let's start there and figure out what you're OK with using as an additive, and then come up with a few experiments to arrive at a make you like.

For example
xanthan gum
guar gum
agar
carageenan
locust bean gum
pectin
arrow root

You can make all these yourself if you are concerned about processed foods.
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Offline Nitai

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Re: Yogurt - Without Denaturing & Using Rennet
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2011, 08:09:28 PM »
always so helpful. I think I am ok with any of these really. Of course the cheaper the better, and I would not want to use anything that is a known allergen. Checking PH is not very desirable, because I often do not keep buffer solutions on hand except during cheesemaking months, which is not right now.

I think part of my problem is that I have failed to ever get one concrete recipe on paper. Every time a method seems to be going really well I get like 2 or 3 fluke batches in a row (including when I was denaturing). So maybe I need to get some of all of these and try it out. Any ideas on which should be first priorities?

Otherwise, I just replaced my bum seedling mat so now I am incubating in a cooler with a seedling mat operated on a thermostat set to ~107F. How's that sound?