Author Topic: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion  (Read 1851 times)

cottagecheese

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Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« on: March 18, 2011, 05:55:28 PM »
Webmaster's Edit: This and following posts split off from Dunlop Cheese Making recipe discussion.

I made a Dunlop cheese about 2 months ago and I used the recipe in Katie Thear's book Cheesemaking and Dairying.

I am quite happy to type it up for you but I'm not sure if that's a copyright infringement.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 03:49:57 PM by Webmaster »

JeffHamm

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2011, 08:18:51 PM »
I too have been looking for a recipe for Dunlop for similar reasons (Scottish heritage).  I believe that recipies are not copywrited material, but collections of them are.  Meaning, you can pass on a sigle recipe but you cannot pass on the entire cookbook. 

- Jeff 

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2011, 08:34:26 PM »
Pliezar, can't help you with the Dunlop, sorry.  Just wanted to say I think your desire to capture something of your lineage from its various cheese traditions is a wonderful thing to do. 

Technically, lists of ingredients are not copyrightable, but accompanying descriptions - e.g., procedures, illustrations, etc., are.  So that if you took a recipe from someone's book, incl. procedure, and wrote it out word for word elsewhere, this would technically be a copyright infringement.  However, tweak the process, put it in your own words, somehow make the ingredients "your own," and you no longer have an infringement.
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linuxboy

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2011, 08:54:48 PM »
Quote
procedures, illustrations, etc., are.
It's tricky, like you explained, because procedures/processes by themselves are also not copyrightable. It has to be a substantial literary work... like a collection of recipes organized in a certain way, or a special illustrated expressions, or some other similar distinction. Restated recipes are perfectly fine. It's common courtesy to write "adapted from..." to credit the original work.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2011, 10:01:46 PM »
Quote
procedures, illustrations, etc., are.
It's tricky, like you explained, because procedures/processes by themselves are also not copyrightable. It has to be a substantial literary work... like a collection of recipes organized in a certain way, or a special illustrated expressions, or some other similar distinction. Restated recipes are perfectly fine. It's common courtesy to write "adapted from..." to credit the original work.

I'm going to have to probably disagree, Pav, and it falls to what the Fed deems as "substantial literary work".  It doesn't really have to be "substantial" in its commonly understood meaning, but rather, anything substantive which could be considered "original" in its content.  From the fed copyright office:

Quote
Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions.

Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook.

 or

Quote
A mere listing of ingredients is not protected under copyright law. However, where a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a collection of recipes as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection

(Emphasis mine). 

So that by my understanding,

"1 tsp sugar, 2 tsp salt, 1/4 cup water" isn't copyrightable;

"1 1 tsp sugar, 2 tsp salt, 1/4 cup water.  Combine all ingredients in a copper-clad pot and bring to a boil over a heat diffuser, being careful not to caramelize the sugar" is, as lame as that is, copyrightable.  The directions accompanying the ingredient listing are what constitute "substantial literary expression."

As would be, technically, "1 1 tsp sugar, 2 tsp salt, 1/4 cup water.  Bring all ingredients to a simmer, slowly.  Do not allow sugar to darken."

Each is a "substantial literary expression."  Hence, my saying that if one were to take a "recipe," and put the processes involved in one's own words, I would consider the original "substantial literary expression" has been preserved, and no infringement will have taken place.  Lame, but so is the law.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 10:30:44 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2011, 10:05:46 PM »
I would consider this an "excerpt" and it is done all the time in every sort of publication. It's a compliment to her and the book and is free advertising. After all we saw it here in a post.

Copyright is only meaningful if there are monetary damages. Will you hurt her sales by copying one of her recipes? Of course not.

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2011, 10:13:06 PM »
Patent law, as with so much of the law, is ridiculously screwed up, but that wasn't the question.  I'd like to be clear, that I am strictly talking about a technical understanding of what constitutes an infringement, since the question has been raised. 

Quote
Will you hurt her sales by copying one of her recipes? Of course not.

I wish it were that easy.  I have seen so many frivolous claims, that I have lost faith in common sense as any guiding principle. 

At any rate, for many reasons, I personally wouldn't worry about it.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 10:22:37 PM by ArnaudForestier »
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linuxboy

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2011, 10:36:27 PM »
Paul, not sure I saw anything in your post that disagreed with what I wrote... maybe I just typed too quickly, wasn't clear? Are you saying "substantial" is too vague and we should focus on the more stringent idea of "literary expression"?

Offline pliezar (Ian)

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 10:40:02 PM »
I made a Dunlop cheese about 2 months ago and I used the recipe in Katie Thear's book Cheesemaking and Dairying.

I am quite happy to type it up for you but I'm not sure if that's a copyright infringement.

Thank you I would love it if you could help me out.

As for the copyright issue, I know that it differs from country to country, I work in the Print Shop of a post secondary institute and we/I deal with copyright all the time and in Canada, Cancopy, you can copy up to 10% of of any publication without having to pay copyright but you cannot sell it.  If I was to publish the pictures on my blog, I would have to give the original author credit and I would be OK.

Pliezar, can't help you with the Dunlop, sorry.  Just wanted to say I think your desire to capture something of your lineage from its various cheese traditions is a wonderful thing to do.

I learned to cook from my father and there are certain dishes that we made that his father taught him.  My son (5yrs turning 6) already helps me cook and make cheese from time to time.  I think my father would have gotten into cheese making with me if he was still alive he always said that "to know where you are going you first must know where you are from" (of course he probably lifted that saying from another great person).

Cheers
Ian

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 10:47:34 PM »
Paul, not sure I saw anything in your post that disagreed with what I wrote... maybe I just typed too quickly, wasn't clear? Are you saying "substantial" is too vague and we should focus on the more stringent idea of "literary expression"?

It may be that I misread what you were saying, Pav.  By

Quote
because procedures/processes by themselves are also not copyrightable....


I took you to mean that something like,

Quote
Combine all ingredients in a copper-clad pot and bring to a boil over a heat diffuser, being careful not to caramelize the sugar

Wouldn't be copyrightable, when in fact (and yes, I find it lame), it would be copyrightable.  The "author" has made a "substantial literary expression" beyond the ingredients, and hence, has made an original, copyrightable work. 
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linuxboy

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 10:55:54 PM »
Oh I see. Yes, I wasn't being clear. Completely agree. Sorry for the thread hijack. Dunlop is a lovely cheese. I like it in a quick open-face sandwich.... bread, mustard, cheese, brown ale :)

Offline ArnaudForestier

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Re: Cheese Making Recipe/Directions Copyright Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 11:40:14 PM »
I'm with you, friend.  Let's talk about something useful.  Cheese! 

Sorry, too, for my hijack, guys.  I love your idea, pliezar.  I, too, love history, and in many ways, that has - don't laugh - driven my love for traditional cooking (researching renaissance French methods), beer, and now, cheese.  You should chronicle something of the cheeses, and their cultural relationship to your family line.  I'd love to read it.
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