30 Gallon capacity - semi-machine; cheap?

[ArnaudForestier]

Pav, having a tough time envisioning piping into buckets, or if into buckets, how that would be an improvement over a portable milker - as you'd still be lugging buckets around.  Sorry - can you go into this a bit more?

@Vic, thanks - still in the planning stage, so not close enough to buy at this point.  Thanks for the heads up, though.

Edit:  Pav, are you talking about hooking cows up to a pipeline, but using a portable milker to roll to each cow, in its stanchion?

[linuxboy]

No, you do a pipeline system with individual takeoffs, or you pipe it all into a small receiving tank, and from the receiving tank manually take off into buckets that are sitting either on a pallet, and you use a pallet lift (manual hydraulic one), or even a makeshift furniture dolly that costs $60.

Portable milker is all self-contained. I'm talking about having all your hoses and everything in a very small, new zealand style parlor with your milk and air lines, with a central vacuum, but instead of spending the big bucks on a holding tank, you go with buckets, and you haul the buckets to your vat. With a holding tank, you'd need to pump to the vat, or to have some sort of portable holding tank.

Just saves you 3-5K, that's all, by doing a hybrid system, and lets you upgrade later if you want. Buckets are expensive, but 4-5 good buckets are cheaper than a tank. You can also go ghetto and milk into a beer keg or other similar food safe contraption (if they let you).

[steffb503]

Arnaud, I do not know where in the states you are but here in NY none of that would have passed. I suggest you talk to the Dept of Agriculture for your state to get the regulations before you start thinking about a system. I could not even imagine them giving the OK without a locked agitator.

[ArnaudForestier]

No, you do a pipeline system with individual takeoffs, or you pipe it all into a small receiving tank, and from the receiving tank manually take off into buckets that are sitting either on a pallet, and you use a pallet lift (manual hydraulic one), or even a makeshift furniture dolly that costs $60.

By small receiving tank, presume you just mean, a simple tank, no cooling or agitation, etc. - this distinguishing it from a small bulk tank, yes?

Portable milker is all self-contained. I'm talking about having all your hoses and everything in a very small, new zealand style parlor with your milk and air lines, with a central vacuum, but instead of spending the big bucks on a holding tank, you go with buckets, and you haul the buckets to your vat. With a holding tank, you'd need to pump to the vat, or to have some sort of portable holding tank.

Sorry, Pav, still having a bit of trouble envisioning a central system with individual buckets.  Are we talking one cow at a time, hooked up to the pipe one at a time, piped down the line, into an individual tote, and you then start the next cow? 

Just saves you 3-5K, that's all, by doing a hybrid system, and lets you upgrade later if you want. Buckets are expensive, but 4-5 good buckets are cheaper than a tank. You can also go ghetto and milk into a beer keg or other similar food safe contraption (if they let you).

I'm all about ghetto, friend.  So count me intrigued, just trying to visualize.

[ArnaudForestier]

Arnaud, I do not know where in the states you are but here in NY none of that would have passed. I suggest you talk to the Dept of Agriculture for your state to get the regulations before you start thinking about a system. I could not even imagine them giving the OK without a locked agitator.

You mean, on the vat, a jury-rigged agitator, yes? (not a bulk tank, with agitator).

Edit:  Here's all I found, from WI's guidelines:

3. Mechanical Agitators
Agitator drives and shafts should be shielded and/or sealed to protect the product from
condensate or lubricants.

On bulkheaded tanks where the agitator motor is located outside the production area,
the agitator shaft should be equipped with a sanitary seal.

Agitators should be readily cleanable and easily sanitized.

I knew I'd have to have a food-grade weld or other means to seal it properly, but outside of this, I can't see why the agitator wouldn't be allowed.  Can you talk about what you mean by "locked" agitator?

[ArnaudForestier]

From another thread:

Just to add a thought, I feel that old world traditions and approaches to making cheese made for better cheese. One of those approaches was to combine evening and morning milk. There was no such thing really as a storage tank, and you couldn't make cheese twice a day most of the time, so you would make it every day in the morning after combining the milks. But, that evening milk sat for 6-12 hours, subject to bacterial action. So it would be pre-acidified naturally and have natural bacterial populations. In my milking, if I leave milk in the cellar at 55-60 from the evening milking, the pH is usually .1-.3 lower (from 6.45 to 6.3 most of the time, goat milk, different for cow). When you add this preacidified milk, what you got were huge colonies of bacteria right away, and some of the protein (casein) had solubilized.

An old post, but thinking on this very thing.  Re-reading Paul Kindstedt's book, on the etiology of cheese practices among French alpine, bloomy-rind, and smear-ripened makers, he posits the notion that with the Northern plains makers of bloomy rinds, largely on farms with one or two cows, they had to do this very thing, for practical reasons:  combine evening and morning milks, and make cheese once daily, or whenever enough milk was gathered to make their cheeses.  The result is a cheese that experiences the classic bloomy-rind acid curve, a quick drop down over 24 hours. 

With monks in monasteries, with larger, concentrated herds, they had ample milk to make cheese immediately on drawing; same as alpagistes, with their herds, making their hard, alpine wheels twice daily.  The result is a cheese with a low integral SLAB load, and a long, slow acid curve down. 

I'm looking into this, as I'm running some numbers and scenarios.  I estimate with 6 cows doing 12000 lbs yearly, I'd have enough milk to do close to 20 lbs hard cheese daily - but that's if combining evening and morning milks.  Obviously, doing cheeses in 10 lbs or under increments makes this a non-issue; but I must also admit one way I'd like to distinguish at least one of my makes - a Beaufort style - is to make it in 20 lb rounds, and not 10 lb, kadova-rounds. 

Given this, absent a bulk tank, logistics start to become dicey.    So, the only way I can see to do this is with a herd twice this size - 12 cows.  Obviously, that introduces a whole host of other issues. 

Anything obvious I'm missing from the above?  Any thoughts?  I suppose I could gather and keep 4 totes or so in a cooler; but any thoughts on how critical it is to the alpine styles, to do a make with every traite, as opposed to combining milkings?

[steffb503]

I guess if not pasteurizing for fresh cheese there is no issue. The agitator needs to lock at a certain speed for proper distribution of heat while pasteurizing. I would check with the authorities  first. Have them look at the system you plan to use first. I would hate to have the system ready to go only to find out they will not pass it.

[ArnaudForestier]

Thanks steff, very good advice, and well warranted.  I've been through a restaurant opening, and agree - better before, than after.  Even if plans have to go through a billion changes, heck of a lot cheaper on paper - than in, over, or under the floor.

[Oude Kaas]

The farmer I get milk from, milks 20 cows in a portable milker and is plannin. To milk 10 more without installing a pipeline. His milk is fantastic and I applaud h O0im.

[ArnaudForestier]

Thanks, Jos.  The issue I'm having is really one of managing workflow, when I'm both dairying and making cheese.  I have to figure out a way to do them both - fully aware, it's a lot of work, but it's a life I want to commit to - but that said, trying to find that sweet spot between minimizing capitalization, and choosing efficient practices and means.

Pav, saw a description of the "hybrid" model you're proposing, in Gianaclis Caldwell's book.  She seems to have a central vacuum, lines, bucket, etc. in the milk room, with an on-off switch easily available in the parlor, so I better get what you're talking about, now.  I couldn't envision how you could basically stop a cow in the middle of her milking, having to switch between buckets, when you're remote from the bucket....but realize, duh, no cow is going to give more than a bucket at any one milking.  

Still trying to think on this issue of combining milkings, v. single milkings, single makes.  Any thoughts on this, as mentioned above, still very much appreciated.

[linuxboy]

I couldn't envision how

Visit a few operations so you can see all this equipment and trace the lines in person. It's a little hard to explain without diagramming all of this out or without seeing the physical gear. It'll make sense once you can visualize the parts and how they fit together.

Single makes are possible, if you think you can do the workflow. I would combine and not drive myself crazy.

[ArnaudForestier]

I couldn't envision how

Visit a few operations so you can see all this equipment and trace the lines in person. It's a little hard to explain without diagramming all of this out or without seeing the physical gear. It'll make sense once you can visualize the parts and how they fit together.

Thanks, Pav.  I understand.  I did get a better sense, from the photo in Gianaclis's book. 

Single makes are possible, if you think you can do the workflow. I would combine and not drive myself crazy.

I guess if I could ensure an immediate crash cooling, I'd be less concerned about combining milkings.  With you, I tend to think the traditional practices have their embedded reasoning - meaning, I guess, I suspect an alpine hard cheese made with absolutely fresh - from cow, to make room, immediately on milking - is going to be different from one made, using a combined milking, as done with camembert, for instance.  Perhaps if I could ensure the evening milk undergoes few (if any, detectable) changes, an evening/morning make would be less of a concern for me. 

[linuxboy]

last time I was over at Gianaclis's and Vern's place was 4? years ago, and I think they ran a double 4 with sheep inflations for the Nigerians, milking into 5 gal buckets that went into a freezer full of ice water (maybe glycol, not sure). Maybe e-mail her and ask for some more pics of the setup? I remember it working pretty well.

I think you're spot on with the reasoning. With modern cooling, you can achieve very consistent makes by combining milk. Bulk tank would be nice, but you can start with buckets that  are chilled in a modified freezer full of glycol. And you can milk into cans that sit in plastic buckets full of ice, put buckets into freezer, and then use a small water pump to circulate the glycol all around the stainless cans, encourage that heat exchange. You could be down to 35F from 100F within an hour easily doing that. Then in the morning, blend your milks, turn on the vat, bring it to strike temp while you clean and prep, and do a nice 3-4 hour make with bulk starters. Then 2 hours for cleanup, recordkeeping, cave maintenance, and you have 2-3 hours left for herd management and chores before taking an afternoon siesta and before evening milking. It's not bad, 10-12 hour days. If you retain weekend milk or take a break for a day during the week, that's a 60 hour workweek. Very reasonable. Or you can do back-to-back makes of 2 types if you want to even out your inventory/supply chain.

Think through your cleaning/sanitation routine more than anything, that takes 70%+ of the time (as you already know). if you can do that efficiently, it's a huge time saver. I think commercial dishwashers and sanitizers are a great investment.

[ArnaudForestier]

Great, helpful info, thanks very much, Pav, as usual.