Yeasts - Using In Vat Discussion

[ArnaudForestier]

Pav, I seem to recall much discussion of b casei in reference to adventitious flora among "artisanal" cheeses, but have not seen any availability of it as a pure culture.  You mention its utility in high Aw, presumably rather stinky cheeses, like livarot; if one were mucking about, would you use this R2R in a very light touch, with either DH or PLA, in an alpine style, or no (either because it would lend too much of a "barnyard" note, or because it wouldn't work well in a lower Aw cheese?).

And would you mind going into how it would be used in raw milk, in terms of consistency?  I ask, as the issue of raw milk is something I'm actually getting close to working with, and have been thinking of what cultures, if any, and how much of them, to use. 

[linuxboy]

b casei...but have not seen any availability of it as a pure culture

It's out there; it's one of the tools I've used to design custom cheeses for people.

would you use this R2R in a very light touch, with either DH or PLA, in an alpine style?

You mean as morge? Morge is about b linens and S xylosum. About highly proteolytic strains combined with a really firm rind so penetration is really slow. You can, as a surface de-acidifier and helper. More pronounced flavor development on high Aw cheeses and washes that are lower salinity than morge.

And would you mind going into how it would be used in raw milk, in terms of consistency?

If you haven't been making the same cheese in the same place for years, your strains are not stable. One way to stabilize is to cheat, use pure culture and inoculate each time. Increases consistency.

what cultures, if any, and how much of them, to use. 

For what, for your morge for alpines? Use b casei, b lines, S xylosum, a little yeast-form geo, and that's about it. Use 10-15% yeast, rest linens/micrococci. Don't throw away the wash, either use and reuse or boil and reinoculate.

[ArnaudForestier]

OK, thanks.  Just haven't seen it in the sources I've tapped so far. 

I should have clarified, I'm talking more in vat inoculations, but I realize now that's a dumb question re: alpines, since alpines are cooked to thermo ranges (also, since I'm not really seeking a "funk" on this level in any alpine I would make, not really relevant here, sorry). 

I think in the back of my mind I was thinking on my preference for vat inoculation in something like a tomme (say, PLA), and was interested in this adjunct yeast (or b casei, after your comment) for its aromatic properties, as a potential addition for complexity and "funk" note.  This, in addition to using it in a wash.

On the raw milk, I think I was thinking back to a comment you made somewhere, on adjusting vat inoculation cultures when going to raw milk.  Sorry, can't find it.  So I was fishing for some guidelines if such exist on how much adventitious flora to depend on (changes, I'm sure, with all the possible variations), and how much/what kinds of vat SLABs, NSLABs and adjuncts to use, when going with an entirely grazed, raw milk. 

[linuxboy]

OK, thanks.  Just haven't seen it in the sources I've tapped so far. 

I'll send you some, still too early. Have to master acidity/moisture in the make first.

for its aromatic properties, as a potential addition for complexity and "funk" note.  This, in addition to using it in a wash.

One of my tomme creations does just that. It makes a lovely cheese, like a cousin of gruyere, not quite reblochon, not quite a hairy tomme with poil de chat.

adjusting vat inoculation cultures when going to raw milk.

Usually, that's in terms of quantity. You can also adjunct, but IMHO, then might as well go completely quality control and pasteurize or thermize and use repeatable cultures.

when going with an entirely grazed, raw milk. 

You're talking about a 20-primal-factor decision tree here, with choices not being necessarily exclusive. General guidelines? Make one change at a time. Keep what you like. Seriously, can't do this mental exercise like this, gets one nowhere, at least need to start with a single cheese or family.

[ArnaudForestier]

Lol...I seem to be having a lot of those "no, don't hit 'send' " moments, as I realize I'm asking the impossible with such a wildly disparate notion, with one decision impacting every other point so greatly, as you say so eloquently. (20 primal factor decision tree....lord, I'm working on a simple beast with a good trunk, and maybe a binary of branches.....).  Uh, point taken. 

On raw milk and the SLAB adjustment - I seem to recall you saying, something like 1/2 was a reasonable starting point - was this a correct memory?  And do you mean, you eschew adjuncts altogether when using raw milk, or you make no adjustments and use adjuncts as you normally would, with pasteurized milk (presume the former - if you're working with raw milk, you're seeking adventitious flora, anyway...).

You realize you've got me dying, on the tomme, yes?   

[linuxboy]

something like 1/2 was a reasonable starting point - was this a correct memory? 

It depends on the milk. If bacteriological quality is crap (some people call this that the terroir has naturally inoculated the milk. What they mean is they can't control sanitation enough to ensure low total bacterial counts... hey...spin), sure, you don't need to inoculate. Also, if you really do practice a tradition where natural flora are helpful and acidify milk, then might not need culture at all.

And do you mean, you eschew adjuncts altogether when using raw milk,

Most of the time, yes. I do still typically use primary starter for acidification and rely on NSLAB (ambient) for added flavor. Sometimes I will cheat and thermize if I'm planning for business processes where I know other people will be involved and I want repeatability.

[ArnaudForestier]

It depends on the milk. If bacteriological quality is crap (some people call this that the terroir has naturally inoculated the milk. What they mean is they can't control sanitation enough to ensure low total bacterial counts... hey...spin), sure, you don't need to inoculate. Also, if you really do practice a tradition where natural flora are helpful and acidify milk, then might not need culture at all.

OK, gotcha.  So one would hope for a low SCC, and inoculate on that basis; but if one has the benefit of - what, years in place, showing a fairly consistent adventitious behavior? - one can get away with it (as in, some of the places we've discussed doing "traditional" work).  Yes?

I do still typically use primary starter for acidification and rely on NSLAB for added flavor.

You mean, you rely on inoculated SLABs, and adventitious NSLABs, for flavor, then?

[linuxboy]

inoculate on that basis

SCC is animal health. I check it as an afterthought. More often, I'll check conductivity first as an early indicator. No, more total bacterial counts is what I use as the decision criterion.

can get away with it

Yes, even in large plants. Two cheddar plants can use the same exact everything and make different cheddars because of NSLAB, ambient ones.

and adventitious NSLABs, for flavor, then

Yes, which is why seasonality is important. In the hot summers, for example, your ambient bacilli are going to thrive and be different than the mix in the fall and winter.

Also, we have totally hijacked this thread. 

[ArnaudForestier]

Interesting, thanks, Pav.

Sorry, I was sloppy in using SCC, when you were discussing "adventitious flora inoculation" too often as a pseudonym for lousy sanitation protocols. 

Also, we have totally hijacked this thread.

Yes, and I've been the one pushing the off-topic conversation.  My apologies, Nick and anyone else reading this.