Author Topic: Mozz/provolone question and help please.  (Read 2476 times)

Offline Tea

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Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« on: January 19, 2009, 02:38:25 PM »
I have been making mozz successfully for a while now and also provolone, but the last three batches that I have made have been shocking, lost all the butterfats with the stretching, and yesterday started loosing the fats before I got to this stage.  BTW I use the long method not the short citric acid method.

So I have been racking my brain trying to work out what I am doing different, and what is going wrong, as I have been extra careful the last couple of times to be exact with temps and times, and I know what the curd should look and feel like before proceeding to the next stage.

Strangely enough the only difference is the milk that I used.  Raw milk with success, store bought with no success.

So are there any out there that use the long method, and what are you thoughts.  Sing I know you have made mozz and provolone, and I also know that you use raw milk.  What have been you findings.

I guess I am having difficulty believing that fresh milk can make such a difference with this cheese. 

The recipe I use is posted on the board already so I won't repeat it, but is there if anyone is interested in checking what I do.

Just feeling frustrated as this is now 30ltr of milk that I have ruined.


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Offline chilipepper

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 04:02:14 PM »
Tea... oops never mind the questions in the other thread.. I guess you've answered those here. :)

I guess I've done the quick version with good success.  I'll give your recipe a try this weekend and see what happens!

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 04:04:04 PM »
I am not a Mozz maker. 

But the one thing that jumps out at me, is the same thing that plagues me.  (I am the master at ruined batches lately.)

Does your recipe call for the addition of CaCl2?

You may need to add some Calcium Chloride to your Milk if it is store bought.

I could be wrong on this,  you are more experienced than me, and there are many more seasoned vetrans here that will tell me if i am wrong, or missing the point.  I just thought i would toss in my $.02.

Wayne A. Harris - in vino veritas

Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 07:12:40 PM »
CaCL is a natural salt so there's no reason not to add it. It can't hurt and won't change the flavor.

Tea, have you made other cheese from the brand of store bought you are using?
Life is like a box of chocolates sometimes too much rennet makes you kill people.

Offline Likesspace

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2009, 09:26:37 PM »
Tea,
I have been comtemplating trying a traditional Mozzerella for the past several weeks so now might be a good time to do it. I do not have access to raw milk and only use store bought for my cheese.
I have always used the Citric Acid/Microwave method but want to give the "whey heating" method a try. From what I understand, this method will produce a better final product with a less rubbery texture to the cheese.
So, this weekend,  I will TRY to make one of these and post my results with store bought milk. I will try because this weekend is turning out to be one that does not look as if it will be very relaxing.
I've already planned on trying a parmesan but if I can find the time I will do a one gallon batch of Mozzerella and see what happens.
I do think that both Wayne and Cater have offered you some good advice. I always add CaCl to my milk and it really does make a difference with store bought.

Dave


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Offline Tea

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 02:28:35 PM »
I usually reserve the raw milk for the harder to make cheeses, because it is free to me, so if I botch it up, then I haven't lost any money.  The store bought milk I reserve for cheeses that I can make with out failure.  Unfortunately I have not had access to raw milk for a few months due to a couple of reasons, so I have been using store bought milk, which by the way, is quality milk.
I mentioned in another post I have never used the cal and I don't possess any, but that being said, it is not the setting stage where I have problems.  The problems start with getting the curd to form into one mass.  It seems to not be doing this stage properly for some reason.  I have decreased the heat, I have increased the heat, I have left it longer and longer, but the correct curd consistancy is just not happening.
I know that the correct PH for some reason, known only to it's self, is fairly important in a successful stretch, and I am wondering if with the store bought milk, I am unable to get the correct PH as the milk is older?

I would really like for some of you to have a go at making some and see what you find.  I am stumped at the moment.

Offline mightyjesse

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2009, 10:14:50 AM »
Did you ever solve this? I am suddenly having the exact same problem, but have no way of measuring my Ph...

Offline H.A.M.

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 01:49:55 PM »
I believe- through brief experience- that loosing fats during stretching or failure of curd to meld at this point is too much acidity. Adding rennet at the proper time also seem to contribute to successfully binding the fats and solids in the curd.
I do get wonderful results by tracking acidity markers, especially for rennet and stretching - Peter Dixon recipe.

Offline Tea

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2009, 02:04:27 PM »
No I haven't tried this again due to the fact that my supply of milk dried up fairly soon  after posting this.
Hoping that I have found a new supplier, so I will be able to start making again.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 09:47:00 AM »
Sounds like your pH is too low. If your cultures are not active enough, they might not produce enough acid quickly. Have you tested the pH? Mozz will not go into stretch mode unless the pH is around 5.2. From my perspective, your pH is probably too high.

Some of the thermophiles are slow acid producers, so I find that the traditional culture method does not acidify quickly enough. I always leave my Mozz sitting at room temp for a few hours. If it's still not hitting stretch mode, I refrigerate (in whey) overnight. Bacteria are still converting lactose to lactic acid, but they do it much slower at frig temps, so it's unlikely to over acidify. This has always worked for me with either store bought or raw milk.

You can always leave your curds at room temp for a couple of more hours to give the bacteria a chance to jump start, then try again. Test the pH if you can. Take a test piece and nuke it in the microwave for 15 seconds or so to test for stretch. When the curds hit 145 F or so, they should take on a glossy sheen and you should be able to stretch. If not hot enough, nuke a little longer.

...and sometimes certain brands of milk just don't work. Ironically, the milk might work on a hard cheese but fail with the pasta filata types.

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Offline chilipepper

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 10:23:53 AM »
Thanks for the added information. Your points are very good and I will certainly be giving this another try as well.  One quick questions that I think would be worthy of noting on this thread.  What are the signs of over acidification and what effect does it have on the curd.  Is it still stretchable? Shiny? Etc....

Ryan

Offline Tea

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 04:14:16 AM »
Sailor, many thanks for this.  I must admit that I never thought of the pH being too low.
I have since I posted this, learnt that some people do leave their mozz over night before stretching, so I am hoping to trial that at some stage in the future.

Again, many thanks for the info.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 01:05:53 PM »
Leaving it in the fridge over night works well. I made the curds the night before doing a mozzarella cheese stretching class for therapy in a convelencent home about a month ago. Cheese stretching is good therapy for stroke patients.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 08:10:14 PM »
I really don't like the flavor of "30 Minute" Mozz which typically uses Citric Acid. Bacterial ripened curds are WHEY better.  ;D

The recipes generally call for a Thermophylic starter, but I find these are really slow acid producers. The best Mozz I have made, I used a dash of Aromatic B Meso culture and let the curds ripen in the frig overnight. This gives the cheese a nice buttery, Diacetyl flavor. When using a meso culture, you don't want to heat over 100 F during ripening or "cooking". Of course you still heat to 145F or so to stretch & finish.
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Offline squirrel

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Re: Mozz/provolone question and help please.
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 10:07:59 PM »
In "American Farmstead Cheese" page 129, you can find photos of cheese being stretched at different pH levels. At pH 5.24, the stretch is ideal. At a higher pH (6.15), the cheese stretches, but is "elastic, fibrous, and chewy." The photo shows the cheese being very stringy. At pH 4.95, the cheese stretches somewhat, but is brittle and granular. At pH 4.83, "the cheese lost its ability to melt and stretch and assumed a brittle, granular consistency that failed to flow." The photo shows a glob of cheese that looks like a ball of rice at pH 4.83.

What is the consistency of your cheese during the stretch phase? Are you even getting to the stretch phase? It sounds like you are having trouble getting the curds to knit together prior to stretching.