Author Topic: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion  (Read 2554 times)

CReillyDetroit

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Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« on: August 29, 2011, 01:22:52 PM »
I have attempted to make camembert about 5 times thus far and am getting very inconsistent results. They look great excellent blooming rinds but sometimes the paste is just too firm and doesn't soften with aging. I should mention I am a small scale commercial cheesemaker so my batches are around 50 gallons U.S. Has anyone had this experience? Can they at least point me in the right direction to look for faults in my process. My understanding is that the raising of the ph by function of the p.candidum is responsible for the softness of the paste. Am I totally missing the mark and am I somehow abusing the curd physically during hooping to cause this problem? Where should I look chemical or physical or both? I am at a loss any insight would be so greatly appreciated.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 01:29:18 PM »
Hello, CReilly, and welcome to the forum.

The PC works from the outside in. If your cheeses are too fat, the PC can't properly ripen towards the center. How thick are your cams? Pictures help a lot. If you can supply additional details about your make, that would be helpful. It's early, but you will undoubtedly receive numerous responses. Any other info you can furnish will get you a more distinct opinion.

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linuxboy

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 07:04:20 PM »
Please read the previous threads where I explain how calcium (colloidal and unbound), milk PF, and moisture contribute to camembert/brie paste.

Quote
My understanding is that the raising of the ph by function of the p.candidum is responsible for the softness of the paste. Am I totally missing the mark
pH by itself would do little to soften. it is the consumption of lactate and the releasing of proteolytic enzymes that is responsible for the runny paste.

CReillyDetroit

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2011, 10:26:35 AM »
Thanks for the responses. I am using whole Holstein milk and have been adding 2 gal. 40% cream to the 50 gal. 3.8% milk to get a 5.2% starting point. I am pasteurizing at 145F for 30 min. by Michigan law. First question after reading previous threads is this higher milk fat at the start affecting the firmness of the cheese and should I just use the whole milk alone? Second I am not adding calcium chloride but still getting a firm coagulum. I usually make raw milk cheese and do not understand the finer points of pasteurization chemistry does my firmness problem lie here? I then ripen at 93F with MM100 PCneige and GEO13 for 1/2 hour fearing to much acidity from the MM100 do I need to ripen longer? Then I set with Chymax microbial rennet for one hour. I then ladle the curd whey mixture into the molds and let them drain over night and turn and salt in the morning. They then move to the cooler 56F to bloom then are wrapped at 12-14 days and moved to the 40F cooler. In my bloom cooler the humidity is achieved with steam injection on a humidistat but the humidity fluctuates between 80 and 95% RH every 1/2 hour or so. Could they just be drying out? The rinds bloom nicely but there is a fair amount of air circulation do I need to use boxes?
I am sorry for the lengthy post but felt my last post was too vague to elicit any specific remedies. Thanks again and great cheese to all.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2011, 01:06:10 PM by CReillyDetroit »

linuxboy

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2011, 02:17:54 PM »
Quote
is this higher milk fat at the start affecting the firmness of the cheese and should I just use the whole milk alone?
Depends on protein. Adjust your milk to a PF of .8-.9 if you want the cheese to run.
Quote
Second I am not adding calcium chloride but still getting a firm coagulum. I usually make raw milk cheese and do not understand the finer points of pasteurization chemistry does my firmness problem lie here?
No.
Quote
for 1/2 hour fearing to much acidity from the MM100 do I need to ripen longer?
Most likely. What is your rennet pH? It should be 6.45-6.5. Or more accurately, you should have a drop of .1 before adding rennet.

Quote
Could they just be drying out?
No. You wrap them, that creates microclimates. In this case, you're using too much cream, and renneting early.

Fix the parameters per above and you should be well on your way :)

CReillyDetroit

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2011, 11:28:36 PM »
Thank you linuxboy. I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. Very thought provoking and humbling. I have been making cheese for eight years and have never even considered PF. I guess I have just been really lucky and I have a lot to learn. I am making camembert tomorrow and will post how it turned out. Thanks again for your generous spirit.

linuxboy

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2011, 01:49:21 AM »
Well, don't get me wrong, you can make fabulous cheese without understanding a thing about it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach, provided farmers are paid well and we treat raw ingredients with respect. Heck, I could program robots to do a better job than many cheesemakers. And I trust electronic sensors more than the sensory capabilities of many cheesemakers. Handcrafted is not intrinsically superior. But IMHO, when we are creating art out of milk, we ought to be artisans about it. This means that our fantastically sophisticated brains ought to outperform anything that machines can conjure. We ought to exceed the mechanical and make choices to craft food with a passion that elevates mere milk into the sublime and exquisite flavors and textures of an a point camembert.

In cheesemaking, unlike in other forms of art, there is a great deal of sophistication involved. It's a living, organic, complex system of interactions, that we manage as organic participants. And to know how to manage with excellence, we must understand the tools of the trade. We must understand bacteria and how it forms acid and flavor compounds. We must understand the mystery of milk. We must understand heat, agitation, sanitation, and a ton of other things so that our passion, sacrifice, and drive imbue the cheese with the quality over which customers rave.

So while I do not think it is a big deal that you made great cheese without understanding the nuances of the style... it is a praiseworthy effort to let your passion shine through so much as to keep learning and keep producing a product so fabulous as to know it is the very best of which you are capable.

Best of luck; I'm sure it'll turn out great :)

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 09:42:25 AM »
I know that the ripening process is crutial but what is PF of milk? Percentage of  Fat ? :-[

I've made Camembert 2 times and they both were failures.  1 was because there was too much whey in the curds and they just spread before they even got to bloom.  the Second, which I have just thrown away as well were rock hard still after 6 weeks.  The recipe I used was the one from Ricki Carrols book and made from store bought milk as that is the only thing I can get in Australia.  My make was as per here recipe and method.  Is there anyone who has used this one and had sucess or can someone point me in the direction of a sucessful recipe and method for 2 US Gallons (8 Litres).
 
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Tomer1

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2011, 10:38:43 AM »
If they were hard its possible they did not rippen at all (your fridge was too cold for enzyme development) or the possibly very high in fat (which still tastes very good).

Brinking them back to your regular cave at 10-12c will get the PC going again,but watch out from slip skin and know that they will likely ammoniate (you will need to let it breath before eating)

linuxboy

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2011, 01:53:47 PM »
Quote
what is PF of milk?
Protein to fat ratio.

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 06:50:44 PM »
Well, don't get me wrong, you can make fabulous cheese without understanding a thing about it. I don't think there's anything wrong with that approach, provided farmers are paid well and we treat raw ingredients with respect. Heck, I could program robots to do a better job than many cheesemakers. And I trust electronic sensors more than the sensory capabilities of many cheesemakers. Handcrafted is not intrinsically superior. But IMHO, when we are creating art out of milk, we ought to be artisans about it. This means that our fantastically sophisticated brains ought to outperform anything that machines can conjure. We ought to exceed the mechanical and make choices to craft food with a passion that elevates mere milk into the sublime and exquisite flavors and textures of an a point Camembert.

In cheesemaking, unlike in other forms of art, there is a great deal of sophistication involved. It's a living, organic, complex system of interactions, that we manage as organic participants. And to know how to manage with excellence, we must understand the tools of the trade. We must understand bacteria and how it forms acid and flavor compounds. We must understand the mystery of milk. We must understand heat, agitation, sanitation, and a ton of other things so that our passion, sacrifice, and drive imbue the cheese with the quality over which customers rave.

So while I do not think it is a big deal that you made great cheese without understanding the nuances of the style... it is a praiseworthy effort to let your passion shine through so much as to keep learning and keep producing a product so fabulous as to know it is the very best of which you are capable.

Best of luck; I'm sure it'll turn out great :)
Whoa. Gold, right there. Every word.

By the way Pav, why would the PF ratio be an issue at only 5.2% butterfat? I often use far more for double/triple creams. The fat abundance turns them softer (even more so in room temperature). Could proteins be so disproportionate to 5.2% fat to prevent normal aging?

Some more ideas to put out there:
To me the procedure sounds okay but I would verify with a pH meter to see if 1/2 hour is indeed enough to get the milk acidified enough pre-rennet (sounds short to me. Linuxboy posted the proper guidelines earlier in this thread). Realistically, the PF ratio, pH level, mineral makeup, bacterial makeup etc of the milk of Wednesday Nov. 2nd are nothing like those of Monday Aug 29 or even last week. (especially for the fall season in the north where you are) so your fabrication needs to flex with it and be sensitive to it.  I would also use spinning-bowl floc multiplier method for the post-rennet period instead of per-prescribed recipe time. This way your entire fabrication is in-tune with the day's milk behavior.

One more thing could be the curd cutting. If you cut too small (or cook/stir until the curd has firmed up and shrunk slightly) you may get a tough Camembert. If you think that may be an issue, try cutting larger.

Last but not least, you said that your aging cellar fluctuated from 80% to 95% RH in a course of 30 minutes repeatedly. If this is your cellar and you are referring to the initial 12-15 day period BEFORE wrapping the cheese, then this may upset the cheese (constantly expand and contract) and gives you average humidity of 87.50% which isn't quite high enough. This could certainly be the main troublemaker here and I would switch to aging containers, at least to see if it solves the problem before fixing your cave.

linuxboy

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2011, 07:20:01 PM »
Quote
By the way Pav, why would the PF ratio be an issue at only 5.2% butterfat? I often use far more for double/triple creams. The fat abundance turns them softer (even more so in room temperature). Could proteins be so disproportionate to 5.2% fat to prevent normal aging?

Let's try and distinguish between two sensory features. One, runniness at room temp. That sort of gooey quality of the paste. And two, the silky mouthfeel. The first one is more a physics kind of issue, one of rheology. The second is more a sensory evaluation that is the interplay among proteolysis and fat level. So the PF issue exists at all butterfat levels. with more fat, the whey drains more slowly and the curd tends to be more delicate. Not a problem, but if one is making a set recipe and doesn't adjust for the fat, it might not produce the best outcome. You're different because you have your hands in the curd and you see it through to where it needs to be.

But have you noticed how when you use a double or triple cream milk, that the curd is different, and the runniness is different? That's really what I'm getting it. Less fat, sat PF is higher than .9 and a cam will get way too runny, unless it's stabilized. I think for you it's also less of an issue because you tend to like semi-lactics for the rich bloomies, and they behave somewhat differently than classic cam.

iratherfly

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Re: Camembert - Paste Too Firm & Protein To Fat Ratio Discussion
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2011, 10:46:30 PM »
Got you.
Yes, curd is totally different with double/triple creams. you cut it and it doesn't really drain...  I usually do initial draining and moulding in higher room temp so they can expel the whey faster. Initially the yield seems to be super high but reality sets in after a couple of days... I am also being careful not to build rind too quickly with those because then the cheese continues to drain and deflate and the rind gets wrinkly and slippy.