Author Topic: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss  (Read 5031 times)

Offline DeejayDebi

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Connecticut
  • Posts: 5,804
  • Cheeses: 95
    • Deejays Smoke Pit and DSP Forums
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2009, 07:10:21 PM »
I read in a book recently that you can not get big eyes in small swiss cheeses because the percentage of "holes" form is so small that most are lost before they have time to develop.

From Cheese Problems Solved

The saturation concentration of carbon dioxide in Emmental is around
34mmol kgÿ1 and depends on pH and temperature of the cheese body. At 10 ëC, 50% more carbon dioxide is soluble than at 20 ëC; at a pH of 4.8 twice as much CO2 is soluble than at pH 5.2. The high pH of Swiss-type cheeses and the ripening step in the warm room are therefore two important factors that are responsible for a lower solubility of CO2 and consequently for better eye development.


A soft and elastic texture is crucial for a regular eye formation. This is why
the technology of Emmental cheese production is aimed at the achievement of optimum conditions not only for propionic acid fermentation, but also for the development of a soft and elastic texture. Furthermore, the rind is also essential for eye formation. Brining of the cheeses for 2±3 days and the rather low relative humidity in the ripening room (70±80%) lead to a firm and dry rind [43], which reduces the loss of CO2. The brining and the low relative humidity of the ripening room results in a loss of water from the rind and, consequently, to a compact protein network at the surface of the cheese, which acts as a barrier for gas diffusion. If the rind is too soft and too porous, the brine can be supplemented with calcium, which leads to a stronger protein matrix. On the other hand, if the rind is too rigid, the calcium available in the brine can be eliminated by precipitation. Thus the porosity of the rind can be controlled by adding or removing calcium.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline FRANCOIS

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Cheeses: 71
  • Default personal text
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2009, 08:02:33 PM »
I have a question. Has anyone tried using the propionibacteria used for Swiss and then freezing the whey or using it the next day in the next batch? I have tried it with other cheeses with great success and since they say it is not culturable.............I think I beg to differ. How else could they do it from season to season in the Alps? I have yet to try Swiss but I am interested in comment. In addition, from what I have read, a lot depends upon the temp at different stages of development. Namely cold to warm and then back to cold. Then storage at cold until the eyes meld together. Let me know.

propionic bacteria is indigenous to the alps.  it's not something the cheesemakers do on purpose.  if you want to see all sorts of movies on authentic swiss making i would use the interweb and, my friend, the google.  be sure and use "cheese" in multiple languages to get the best hits.

Offline Ginger

  • Young Cheese
  • **
  • Posts: 14
  • Cheeses: 1
  • Default personal text
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2009, 10:23:57 AM »
Your cheese is beautiful. Great job.
 

Offline Likesspace

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Southern Illinois
  • Posts: 773
  • Cheeses: 20
    • Middleton Street Weather
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2009, 09:32:36 PM »
Debi....
Thanks for the above post.
I've always gotten a nice elastic texture with my swiss but as yet I have NOT gotten a nice firm rind. That might just possibly be the problem area for me.
The best swelling cheese I've made to date eventually just...deflated, overnight on me. I had no idea why this would happen but it could have been that the Co2 escaped from the surface of the cheese.
On my next attempt I will try to get a good rind formed before moving the cheese into the sweating stage. You might have just given me the missing variable to making a good swiss.
I just can't accept the premise that nice eyes can't be formed in a small wheel. I might eventually be forced to accept this fact but right now I am not even close to that point. :)
Thanks again. That's why I love this forum. So many people working on the same problem...making a perfect cheese.


Dave

Offline DeejayDebi

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Connecticut
  • Posts: 5,804
  • Cheeses: 95
    • Deejays Smoke Pit and DSP Forums
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2009, 10:24:36 PM »
I hope it works for you I think I posted that just about the time of your hiatus.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 198
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2009, 10:36:39 PM »
Hey Dave,

I ran across a Danlac recipe:
http://www.danlac.com/news/making-swiss-cheese-recipe

and here's what they say:

Possibilities to enhance eye formation:
* higher inoculation amount of propionic acid bacteria
* higher scalding temperature up to 40 - 41 °C
* shorter salting time with a weaker salt concentration
* higher pH after salting: not under pH 5.30 - 5.40
* shorter ripening time in cool storage, with a higher temperature, e.g. 7 days at 11 - 14 °C
* longer ripening time in warm storage, e.g. 5 - 6 weeks at 22 - 24 °C


What if you tried scalding at a higher temp? The higher temp would help with curd knitting, and maybe that would eliminate the multiple nucleation sites so that the holes would be larger?
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 2,522
  • Cheeses: 125
    • Boone Creek Creamery
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 12:19:50 AM »
Danlac also says: "packaging in special foil for large eye formation cheese, or coating".

What kind of "special foil"?
A moldy Stilton is a thing of beauty. Yes, you eat the rind. - Ed
www.boonecreekcreamery.com

Offline FRANCOIS

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Cheeses: 71
  • Default personal text
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 05:07:51 AM »
that's ringing a vague bell.  one of the culture manufacturers (hansen?) makes an eye formation "system" that includes a wrap to keep in the gas. 

nice eyes can be formed in a small wheel.  we make swiss in 10kg blocks and the europeans thought we were crazy, they said good eyes couldn't be made in a wheel smaller than 80 kg.  we have our own special sauce though, we manufacture our own propio.  the 10kg block is only a few inches thick, you should be able to do it on a small wheel.

Offline Sailor Con Queso

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 2,522
  • Cheeses: 125
    • Boone Creek Creamery
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 10:54:09 AM »
Wouldn't vacuum bagging do the same things as a "wrap to keep the gas in"?
A moldy Stilton is a thing of beauty. Yes, you eat the rind. - Ed
www.boonecreekcreamery.com

Offline Likesspace

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Southern Illinois
  • Posts: 773
  • Cheeses: 20
    • Middleton Street Weather
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 06:21:20 PM »
Guys, thanks for the information.
Sailor when I read about the foil, my first thought was the same as yours. I wonder if there is any reason that vacuum packing wouldn't work in the same way?
I might just have to give this a try.
After three years of fighting this problem I'm willing to try just about anything.

Dave


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline DeejayDebi

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Connecticut
  • Posts: 5,804
  • Cheeses: 95
    • Deejays Smoke Pit and DSP Forums
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2009, 06:47:38 PM »
Some of the cheeses I bought in Vermont a few years back had a foil wrap with an almost waxed freezer paper interior.

I've wondered about vac packing soon after brining but leaving the out of the cave for a few weeks.

Offline Likesspace

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Southern Illinois
  • Posts: 773
  • Cheeses: 20
    • Middleton Street Weather
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2009, 07:43:54 PM »
Debi,
There's no doubt that it would have to be left out of the cave during the sweating period. I would also think that it would have to be vac'd loosely so that the cheese would have room to swell.
I'm really thinking that this might be worth a try. Along with pressing under the whey, creating a nice rind and vacuum packing I now have renewed hopes for a successful swiss.
Thanks for the ideas everyone!

Dave

Offline goatherdess

  • Medium Cheese
  • ***
  • Location: Virginia
  • Posts: 94
  • Cheeses: 5
  • Default personal text
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2009, 08:00:12 PM »
"propionic bacteria is indigenous to the alps"

It is also native to my farm. I did figure out how to exclude it - by shutting the kitchen windows while I make cheese. Conversely, if I put the pot, uncovered, near the window while doing the stir, I frequently (mostly in June) can get a nice, very sweet-tasting swiss, but with many small eyes. (Perhaps this is because my cheeses are usually around 12 oz.) This means it's floating around in the air on my farm in June. But what's the source? ???

Thanks, linuxboy for that eye-formation list. That may be just what I'm looking for to make this "wild thing" make the right kind of eyes.

Offline FRANCOIS

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
  • Cheeses: 71
  • Default personal text
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2009, 08:01:48 PM »
We vacuum pack it.  We make something like 10 tonnes an hour with this method.  Pe the Naitonal Dairy Council:

Rindless Swiss cheese in blocks is an American innovation. The milk is set, and the curd cut and cooked as described above for traditional Swiss cheese. In rindless Swiss cheese, the curd and whey are pumped into a forming tank, where the curd settles and pressure is applied with press plates before the whey is removed. After the whey is drained off, the curd is pressed overnight, then cut into blocks of the desired size (usually 80 to 100 pounds). The blocks of cheese are salted in brine similar to traditional wheels of Swiss cheese, usually from 1 to 3 days. The surface of the cheese is dried at 50° to 55°F for 5 to 10 days.

The cheese is then wrapped in plastic film and placed in a box under pressure in a cold room (50° to 55°F) for 6 to 10 days to prepare the cheese for eye formation. Thereafter, it is transferred to a warm room maintained at 70° to 76°F, the optimum growth temperature for Propionibacterium shermanii . During this principal ripening period, propionic acid fermentation occurs. Proprionibacterium shermanii and related organisms convert lactic acid and lactates to propionic and acetic acids and carbon dioxide. The propionic acid contributes to the characteristic sweet flavor and the carbon dioxide collects to form holes of eyes. The development of eyes is completed in 3 to 4 weeks. The cheese is then returned to a cold (35° to 40°F) curing room for 3 to 9 months or longer for slower ripening and more flavor development. Most of the Swiss cheese manufactured in the United States is marketed after ripening for 3 to 4 months.

Offline DeejayDebi

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Connecticut
  • Posts: 5,804
  • Cheeses: 95
    • Deejays Smoke Pit and DSP Forums
Re: Pics of my nasty looking, cracked surface, underpressed swiss
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2009, 08:08:56 PM »
10 tons an hour? Good Lord!