Author Topic: Mould size & pressure  (Read 3680 times)

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 02:46:37 PM »
I think this kind of data is one data point, that mapped with others like %fat in milk, pH at various phases, Strains in the starter culture, all combine to form trade secrets.

These are the cards that real cheese manufactures keep close.
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Offline Likesspace

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 07:44:31 PM »
Hey, once you guys get the math figured out on this, let me know......
Maybe I'll find a new cheese making forum (that you know nothing about) and  take credit for the information you come up with.  ;D
Honestly, you two have helped me a LOT with your pressing information.
I'll be looking forward to hearing your ideas on this subject.

Dave

Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2009, 07:54:16 PM »
Dave I've worked the math forwards and back and different ratios, I think it's fine the way it is. I tried figuring out the pounds per cubic inch instead of square inch and it's not that far off. But I think PSI is the way to go. You can't go wrong with my chart.
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Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2009, 11:13:51 AM »
Here is an article that talks about and actual pressure: 26PSI


"A study was made of the influence of several factors on the texture of young and mature vacuum-pressed rindless cheese. Pressures greater than 26 lb/in2 were required for maximum improvement in texture. A vacuum of 15 in was less effective than a vacuum of 25 in. Vacuum pressing of 'dressed' cheese for 5 min was almost as effective as vacuum pressing for 17 h; vacuum pressing after dressing was more effective than before dressing; transfer of vacuum-pressed cheese to a normal press for the completion of pressing did not affect texture. Vacuum treatment of curd before hooping and pressing in the normal way had no beneficial effect on texture; vacuum pressing improved the texture of cheese made with mixed-strain starters although this cheese was not as close as vacuum-pressed cheese made with single strain starters.

The distinct improvement in cheese texture which resulted from some combinations of vacuum pressing condition was confirmed in commercial scale trials involving 2,540 rindless cheese. This improvement was evident when cheese were graded at two weeks and when regraded at maturity."

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Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2009, 02:01:44 PM »
I've just been reading the recipes in my Cheese and Fermented Milk Foods text book and they talked about every aspect of Parmesan, a whole chapter in fact, and it talks about ones that are pressed and ones that are not pressed. Just as I suspected, it's up to manufactuer, just like cheddar from two different cheeseries are different.
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Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2009, 06:59:08 PM »
Dang 'cheeserie' trade secrets..




(actually, i just wanted to say "Cheeserie")
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Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2009, 07:32:45 PM »
I like making up me own words.
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Offline valereee

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 10:01:17 AM »
Wow, I am so glad to have found this discussion.  I seconds ago  had a eureka moment and thought, "but putting a 2# recipe into a 6" mold doesn't change the absolute amount of cheese curds that need to be pressed...maybe that means the psi isn't the crucial factor.  Maybe it's the pounds per CUBIC INCH!" 

I JUST posted to the other forum, searched there on pounds per cubic inch and didn't find anything, so I came here to search and found this. 

People were talking about how taking a 2# recipe intended for a 4" mold and putting that 2# of curd into a 6” mold doesn’t cause problems.  But others were saying that while they hadn't noticed a problem when going from 4" to 6", they had noticed a problem when going from 6" to 8".  But when you go from a 6” mold to an 8” mold, of course you’re talking a much more massive cheese.  No one would put a 2# recipe into an 8” mold—it would be about half an inch thick.  And most people going from a 6” mold to an 8” mold are doing so because they -want- to make a more massive cheese, not because they want their 5# cheese to be flatter.  (PLUS most people going from a 6" mold to an 8" mold are much more experienced, so they know what a well-knitted and adequately-pressed cheese looks and feels like.)

I think it's pounds per cubic inch that has to be the crucial measure. 

Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 03:13:25 PM »
I've done the calculations and Pounds per cubic inch when factored from a pressed 2# cheese that comes out 4" wide by 4" high is not far off from the bigger batches and bigger molds. I don't know if it's that necessary. I think in the end pressure guide lines are just that GUIDE lines. When you move up to bigger wheels only experience will come into play because you need to consider more than just curd knitting, but final moisture content.
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Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2009, 03:35:52 PM »
Repost from the other forum:

I do agree that thickness of the mould plays a part.  I will also say that the type of cheese plays a part.

I do not argue that whatsoever.

I was merely talking about adjusting canned recipes in order to maintain a constant pressure across different wheel sizes.

So for example, if you had a 4” wheel that is 3” deep, and a 10” wheel, that is also 3” deep, the surface area increases from 12.4si to 78.5si.  In order to maintain a constant pressure (a specific psi) on your wheel, you will need to increase the force (weight).

While there may a relationship between cheese volume and surface area, I am not sure how they are linked. 

In the case above, the volume of cheese increased from 37.5cuin in the 4" wheel to 235.5cuin in the 10" wheel. But I am not sure that an increase in PSI is warrented because the depth of the cheese curds remains constant in both moulds. Both are 3" deep.    Keep in mind that in order to keep the pressure constant on both wheels, you will need more weight on the larger wheel due that weight being distributed over more square inches of cheese.

However, if the same 4” mould had 10” of curd instead of 3” of curd, I would understand if more weight was required to properly press that wheel.  It seems reasonable to assume that the deeper the curd, the more resistance to pressure the cheese would be.

I think that is one reason that the commercial horizontal presses have followers every 15 inches or so, instead of one long press. 

So while cubic inches are relevant, I'm not sure how.

But then again, that is why i am here,  I want to hear from the pros.. 

We need Quinlan to "weigh in"  on this topic.


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Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2009, 06:27:50 PM »
Qunilan's been MIA, probably because his cheese making season is over.

P.S. I might go to one of the Cheese Making Conferences in Sonoma I've talked to the coordiantor and got an outline of events. I only need to go for one day and it's $85.
Life is like a box of chocolates sometimes too much rennet makes you kill people.

Offline Wayne Harris

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2009, 06:35:30 PM »
I hope you do. 

We are all expecting a full report!
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Offline Cartierusm

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Re: Mould size & pressure
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2009, 06:43:44 PM »
Thanks wayne, it might be a while as I'm trying to perfect some other things first. I can't wait until I get the mesh in.
Life is like a box of chocolates sometimes too much rennet makes you kill people.