Cut Curds, Cooking - Matting & Hard/Rubbery Texture Problem

[Annie]

Everything was going well, except I had two different sizes of curds, until I started warming up the curds veeeerrrrryyyyyy slowly by putting warmer water in an outer pot (as stove heats all hp too quickly).

Now, I have noticed that when I do this, the curds start coming together. I was under the impression that the curds should be separated by the stirring, but even now (with new system of softer curds) I see that the curds are getting rather hard and rubbery.

I really think this texture is a problem. Are we supposed to separate the curds when stirring? What can I do to keep the curds from getting to a place that seems to me not to be conducive to good cheese (remembering I am really clueless about the way it really is supposed to be)?

And if this is not the way it's supposed to be, can I do anything about it, because frankly this is what usually happens and my cheese has not ever turned out well.

Making cheese is like riding a roller coaster...

Thanks for any advice!

[linuxboy]

I had two different sizes of curds,

Vital to cut them all to the same size. If you stir and see large pieces, cut the large pieces with your spatula/ladle.

Now, I have noticed that when I do this, the curds start coming together.

Stir more frequently to ensure they do not mat

I was under the impression that the curds should be separated by the stirring, but even now (with new system of softer curds) I see that the curds are getting rather hard and rubbery.

I don't understand this. Matting and syneresis are two separate issues. One is about ensuring agitation to prevent matting, the other is a consequence of collision, floc, temp, and time.

[Annie]

I had two different sizes of curds,

Vital to cut them all to the same size. If you stir and see large pieces, cut the large pieces with your spatula/ladle.

Even when I don't have a problem with flocculatiin (every once in a while I seem to not stir the rennet in enough for solid flocculation thruout), I'm using round pots and will get different sizes just from that. I can't afford the curd knives I have seen. Am I doomed to make only small-curd cheeses?

Now, I have noticed that when I do this, the curds start coming together.

Stir more frequently to ensure they do not mat

Ok

I was under the impression that the curds should be separated by the stirring, but even now (with new system of softer curds) I see that the curds are getting rather hard and rubbery.

I don't understand this. Matting and syneresis are two separate issues. One is about ensuring agitation to prevent matting, the other is a consequence of collision, floc, temp, and time.

I really appreciate your answer, Linus, but I don't know what this means? I read that if the curds are agitated too much, they will get harder in a way we don't want, so I have tried to be very gentle with the cut curds.

And you seem to be saying that the getting hard and kind of dry has to do with, among other things, collision?

[linuxboy]

I'm using round pots and will get different sizes just from that.

I don't follow. You mean the bottom has larger curds when you start to stir, or the curds are uneven, etc? Just cut each large curd chunk that is uneven with your ladle after you start stirring. Like when you first stir, you're bound to see a bunch of large pieces. Cut those, stir, more will come up, cut those, etc. in 4-5 mins all the curds will be uniform.

Am I doomed to make only small-curd cheeses?

Not at all, it just takes more work.

I read that if the curds are agitated too much, they will get harder in a way we don't want,

What do you want to achieve? It's not a right or wrong answer. More stirring = more curd collisions = more water lost from the curds. Sometimes, like for parm, you want it to lose that water from the curd. Sometimes, like for brie, you don't. There is such a thing as "too much", but that refers to stirring so hard that when you want large curds, it actually breaks up the curds and they shatter into small pieces. The rest of the time, no such thing as too much. Typically, you start out more gently to prevent curd shattering, and then can stir normally.

And you seem to be saying that the getting hard and kind of dry has to do with, among other things, collision?

Curds lose water in a process called syneresis. The factors that determine the final moisture of the cheese, and therefore the rate of syneresis, are, in order of degree of influence 1) curd size matched with flocculation multiplier 2) Agitation 3) Cook schedule (temp), and 4) acidity level.

The more collisions you have, the faster the water loss. When stirring you are trying to balance acid development, temp, and moisture level before draining.

[Annie]

 Thanks so much for you help, Linux I am really sorry that I am bemused by your explanation

Anyway, my husband saw that was felling very discouraged, and suggested we watch a video about it. First we watched one where they make pecorino... over a campfire in a little hut... stirring with thin tree branches with the bark peeled off... and then when the rind develops, they open it up for the flies to come in and eat it when the maggots show up. (just thought I'd describe that as it seemed unusual)

Then we watched one about a man making farmhouse cheddar, which seems to be a very basic hard cheese (no annatto, no lipase, no cheddaring).

Now, when he cut his curd, you could hear that he didn't get it all cut up. And then he didn't check it. He just put it like that into the warm water to cook the curds. He stirred the curds quite gently; they didn't have the "rest period" that is in my directions, and it did seem that his stirring would cut up the curds to a point but it was very gentle and apparently almost continuous? Hard to tell as he didn'tnfilm the entire half hour, during which he also changed the water in the sink a couple of times.

Then he drained the curds, and you could see they looked more like cooked oatmeal than mine do. By this time, mine are like tiny coat gel packs which seem they will not pack together, and the smaller stuff just like... a toy soldier which melted and them someone tried to straighten out?

And after an hour, he put them in the bowl and then fluffed them up! They seemed very different, not really difficult to separate. But still moist. And very easy to mix salt into (another problem I've been having, what with the lightly armored stuff I get).

Sorry to have been so long, but now I'm wondering if my diligence on size and cut-up-ed-ness of my curds may have caused too much collison and done this ghastly thing to my curds? And then my fear of stirring too much caused me to stirr too little, necessitating too much roughness to keep them from matting?

Is that possible?

Thanks so very much!!!!

[linuxboy]

if my diligence on size and cut-up-ed-ness of my curds may have caused too much collison and done this ghastly thing to my curds?

No clue, might have.

And then my fear of stirring too much caused me to stirr too little, necessitating too much roughness to keep them from matting?

Most likely not, matting is a function of acidity and temp.

I think if the curd is too dry, you are not using a high enough floc, and possibly cooking too long.

[Annie]

if my diligence on size and cut-up-ed-ness of my curds may have caused too much collison and done this ghastly thing to my curds?

No clue, might have.

And then my fear of stirring too much caused me to stirr too little, necessitating too much roughness to keep them from matting?

Most likely not, matting is a function of acidity and temp.

I think if the curd is too dry, you are not using a high enough floc, and possibly cooking too long.

I'm not sure it's too dry, more that it's too plasticky.

Now, what is a high floc? Would that mean that I wait *longer* than when I get a clean break? (I do get a clean break much sooner than any directions ever said I would, like they'll say, wait 60 or 90 minutes for a clean break. Should I wait for however long they tell me to, even if I get a clean break after 15 or 20 minutes? Just as a reminder, I'm using raw milk from our own cow, not store-bought.

Thanks so very much, I do really appreciate your help very much!!!

[linuxboy]

I'm not sure it's too dry, more that it's too plasticky.

Then your acidity is wrong or the milkfat proportions are off for the cheese type you're making. If it's like rubber, then you haven't waited long enough for the acidity to build up.

Now, what is a high floc?

High flocculation multiplier. Search the forum for an explanation and relevant threads.

Would that mean that I wait *longer* than when I get a clean break? (I do get a clean break much sooner than any directions ever said I would, like they'll say, wait 60 or 90 minutes for a clean break. Should I wait for however long they tell me to, even if I get a clean break after 15 or 20 minutes? Just as a reminder, I'm using raw milk from our own cow, not store-bought.

Clean break is totally irrelevant in cheesemaking because it is a crappy, subjective measure. If you want to control moisture, use the flocculation method to time when to cut the curds.

[Annie]

Thanks again, Linux!

So, I am wondering a few things 1. is store-bought milk all so exactly that same that the recipes can be very simple and still come out right, so my problem is I am using milk which is totally random?

2. If there a way to get all this information in a more forwards kind of way, like first you do this, then that, as opposed to this backing into it way that I seem to be doing? And are there any recipes which include all this information?

3. Is there a way to test ph besides a meter which you can still see the difference of? I'm still saving for a thermometer, like a special type of litmus paper or something like that? I noticed someone was using a spin test--could that be used for cheeses other than mozz?

Thanks again for all your help!