Author Topic: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese  (Read 5259 times)

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 110
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #45 on: December 14, 2011, 12:33:26 AM »
How much geo did you put in it? the bitterness is related to accelerated proteolysis - results of early geo. It's a tricky balance between drying speed, moisture control and temp.  It also seems as if you interior of the cheese has never aged.  How long was this age? What temp?

Best practice is tiny tiny amount of geo and more PC then geo. Keep at low 80% moisture for the first 3-4 days (counting from when you remove them from the drying rack to the aging container). Then allow the geo to grow slowly at 13°F or so at 90% humidity (day 5-6). By day 7 PC should be popping. Be vigilant of the skin from now on. If it starts to soften up or wrinkle prematurely, move it to the bottom shelf of your refrigerator to slow down the geo. You can move it back to aging in a few days if the problem resolved itself, or just let it age all the way in the fridge. Don't open before day 14 (my suggestion). Expect it to be ready in the fridge around day 21 or so.  If this keeps happening, consider changing the geo strain you are using to something less aggressive. 


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #46 on: December 14, 2011, 02:00:02 AM »
Didnt use any geo.
I keep leaving it outside at room temp (14-18c) for an additional day or so to drain after moulding before I carry the mould to the fridge for additional drying at about 80-85% for 3-4 days before popping the lid and uping humidity to the upper 90s.

Temp is 12c, 13f seems a bit drastic I dont want a frozen lolicheese :P

The PC cheese was at around two+ weeks.


Im made some more this weekend, had a taste when flipping today and Im getting the same hints of musky-damp flavour\aroma.

I have no idea what might be causing it.  The bamboo mat maybe?! or possibly that extra day of warmish draining promoting some kind of bacterial activity which I really dont see evident.
 
The fridge smells just fine, I also hung a charcoal odor absorber to be on the safe side.
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,710
  • Cheeses: 168
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #47 on: December 14, 2011, 12:22:06 PM »
Hi Tomer1,

Hmmm, I started mine on a Saturday, and the curds were formed on the Sunday.  They sat at room teperature draining all day Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday morning went into the cave. 

I added mould from a bought camembert, so the mix of mould and strains I can't comment upon.

I did, however, age mine on a plastic needlepoint mat rather than bamboo.  I'm wondering if the moisture from the cheese has kept the bamboo wet and imparted the undesirable flavour and bitterness. 

I don't have a way of measureing my humidity, so I don't know the levels this was at during aging.

- Jeff

P.S. Also, I think I've got a much taller cheese.  You've made a much more disk shape compared to my barrel, at same thing for the blue version.  Perhaps that has something to it.
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2011, 03:29:19 PM »
Bingo  ;)

I think its the wood,It is extremly moist. Got a taste of some stuck cheese on the bottom and it is astringent ,almost tannic and I wonder if its the wood or any anti fungal treatment which goes into the wood. (I boil any new mat several times to leech that nasty odor off,whether its for cheese or for acually making sushi)

Im gone re-attemp the blue with 3 liters of milk this time and a larger mold.
YOAV also suggested in the other thread to make it bigger and in a more "rindless" style.

Gone give it one more chance ,other wise im going back to making creamy 90 day stiltons  :P
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:02:03 AM by Tomer1 »
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,710
  • Cheeses: 168
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #49 on: December 14, 2011, 07:46:32 PM »
Sounds like you're onto it.  Given that both the blue and PC version were bitter, it must be something in common.  The prime suspect is now the mat. 

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 110
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2011, 01:37:11 PM »
I doubt it's the bamboo. As long as it is clean (no detergent, just scrub with hot water and steam for 10 minutes) -it should be fine. These Bamboo Sushi mats or Mikados are used even at French commercial manufacturers. Really no big deal.  The muskiness could be related maybe to having too much blue culture or even to the effect of a cotton cheesecloth in draining.  Regardless, the final flavor will overcome it.

Have you tried any of my suggestions?  You REALLY need to drain it a lot and mould it by packing it lightly. Additional rind treatment should be sprayed much later or just wrap tightly in foil.  I really suggest to use yeast

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2011, 05:55:44 AM »
No I havent made the blue again yet, by yeast you mean some dry bakers yeast? 

Its apearent that the smell is showing up again in my PC cheese which is currently drying and despite the box left open (with lowish humidity at the 80% area) started developing some white fur.

I wonder if ripening with PC along with the high moisture might be responsible?
Maybe I should alter the make -   mould,dry and then spary with PC?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 06:05:39 AM by Tomer1 »
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 110
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2011, 11:43:53 AM »
Well, PC wouldn't develop without the high moisture. Building it too fast though may create a problem so you can dry more, reduce temperature and moisture, shorten the cave time and lengthen the refrigerator time -or use a less aggressive PC strain.

For yeast, try KL71 or similar if you can get it. You must have some wine or beer yeasts. These may work too. I am afraid baker's yeast would grow out of control and invite contamination to the cheese. It is very strong, but if all else fails, put in about 1/64th of a teaspoon per 1-2 gallons. I am talking about a few granulates here. That's enough. Perhaps for even distribution you want to first dissolve it in water as you would with calcium/rennet

Just to reiterate, I use 1/4 teaspoon baker's yeast on a no-knead bread (no sugar added either). It is enough to rise a 3 Lbs. loaf in 4 hours. Imagine what it would do to your cheese!

Offline Tomer1

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Israel
  • Posts: 1,669
  • Cheeses: 33
  • Default personal text
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2011, 12:04:19 PM »
I dont have access to cheese yeast.

As far as Im aware wine yeast cannot metabolize lactose so im not sure what they will feed on to produce gas, perhaps I need to add a tiny bit of sucrose?

What do you mean by refrigirator (4c) time?  Its kept in the cave (12c) since day 2 since from my understanding the hardening of fat at the fridge will prevent proper draining.
Amatuar winemaker,baker, cook and musician
not in any particular order.

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,710
  • Cheeses: 168
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2011, 12:36:44 PM »
Hmmmm,

I aged mine out 4 weeks from make day, both the PC and blue version.  If I understand correctly, you've cut into yours at the 2 week mark? Could it be that these are going through a bitter stage, which then dissipates over time?  So, I just missed the bitter stage of mine?

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline anutcanfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ruch, Oregon
  • Posts: 931
  • Cheeses: 26
  • Who moved my cheese?
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2011, 12:44:04 PM »
Hi Jeff,

Somewhere I remember you had cheeses that were bitter.  Did they come out of it yet?  When did it start and how long before it resolved?  I have two cheeses I'm worried about.  One had too much rennet and the other, a gouda, I can't for the life of me figure out why it's bitter.
Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,710
  • Cheeses: 168
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #56 on: December 18, 2011, 06:16:28 PM »
Hi anut,

I had a caerphilly that I aged for about 3 months that was a touch bitter.  However, over the time that I ate it that seemed to clear up.  The bitterness was noticable, especially to me, but not overly strong and the cheese was edible.  Generally, the cheeses I've had with some bitterness tended to resolve themselves as I consumed them.  I've wondered if the cutting of them helps clear it up?  I had put it down to too much starter, but I'm not sure if that was it or if it was simply wild Geo that was causing it.  I've never had one be extremely bitter (yet, I'm sure), apart from one camembert that I left to age for far too long and it just went beyond it's use by date - but that's not the same thing.  If you've got a pressed cheese that is bitter, just vac seal or wax it and put it away for four or five months, then try it again.  I made a gouda the end of last year, my first hard cheese, and I let it age for about 11 months before trying it.  I used more renett than I do now by about 50%.  It's fine, very good in fact.  Whether it was bitter or not early on I don't know, but if you're worried about your gouda, just age it out for a long time.  Wax it, so it doesn't take up ripening box room, and forget about it. 

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 110
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2011, 09:03:34 PM »
As far as Im aware wine yeast cannot metabolize lactose so im not sure what they will feed on to produce gas, perhaps I need to add a tiny bit of sucrose?
While it prefers sucrose, it will be happy to consume lactose in lieu of sucrose.  Too much science around here lately. Just do and see what it does.

Jeff, the bitterness is in part due to the accelerated rate of proteolytic activity that the P.Roq creates. This is the same reason why blue turns an otherwise crumbly cheese into creamy one, or why Geo makes the paste under a bloomy cheese softer and gooey. In both cases, if you are  not being careful - your cheese will turn bitter too.  The blue needs to slow down. This bitterness happens if too much of it grows too fast (and it doesn't have to take visually blue appearance for this to happen, so don't judge the growth by your eyes only). Blues need to be aged cooler and with lots of salt to control this effect and get beautiful timely growth. (Also, you can use less blue).  Just practice it. It will take a few cheeses to get the hang of this balance. Life is beautiful thereafter. You are going to nail this one quickly.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 09:49:39 PM by iratherfly »

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,710
  • Cheeses: 168
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2011, 11:30:49 PM »
Thanks iratherfly.  I've only made the one blue, so these are definately helpful tips. 

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline iratherfly

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: The Cheese Caves underneath Manhattan; New York City NY
  • Posts: 1,913
  • Cheeses: 110
  • Cheese, milk's leap toward immortality (Clifton F)
Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2011, 12:03:26 AM »
Anytime! I just hope it helps.

I really wanted to make a semi-lactic blue with you (Jeff) and Tomer together on here so that we can all explore it at once and test the theories. This is not the first time I arrive at a specific cheese and a few other people on this forum get to it at the same time so we all do it together and bounce ideas off each other. I would have done it today but I am afraid that I won't be home to care for it at a critical time during the holidays that I plan on spending in Canada.  I will wait with it until the first week of the new year. I will post the recipe and you guys tell me what you think. We will adjust it as needed and any one of us (or all of us) can fabricate it and post photos here.