Author Topic: Lactobacillus Helveticus  (Read 4937 times)

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,691
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Lactobacillus Helveticus
« on: November 11, 2011, 12:40:29 AM »
Hi,

I understand lactobacillus helveticus is a thermophilic flavour enhancer.  But, does it do it's "flavour enhancing" during the make or during aging?  And if the latter, does that mean you could add it to a mesophillic cheese and it would still do its thing?  (break down amino acids or proteins or ?)  Or, is the lower temperature of a meso make sufficient to prevent it from growing to sufficient quantity?  Hmmm, could you heat a small pot of milk to a warmer temp to grow the LH, then cool it to meso temperature and add this at the end of the ripening period?

Can you guess who has a new culture to play with?

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2011, 12:51:51 AM »
Quote
does it do it's "flavour enhancing" during the make or during aging? 
For which cheese? i think what you're asking about is enzymatic properties and flavor formation during protein catabolism. But, although this is not a typical application, you can use LH as a flavor enhancer in fresh cheeses. It can produce different byproducts to create flavor differences.... different acidic profile.

Quote
does that mean you could add it to a mesophillic cheese and it would still do its thing?  (break down amino acids or proteins or ?)
Correct. When using as adjunct, you change nothing in the make parameters. Endo and exo proteases aid in flavor and aroma formation.

Quote
Or, is the lower temperature of a meso make sufficient to prevent it from growing to sufficient quantity?
It is actually irrelevant. LH populations will increase as the cheese ages at first, at normal cellar/cave temps.

Quote
could you heat a small pot of milk to a warmer temp to grow the LH, then cool it to meso temperature and add this at the end of the ripening period?
Yes. So long as they are live, viable cultures, add them however you want. target .1% bulk equivalent and up when using as adjunct. More = more flavor, but you risk it becoming more and more like parm if you use too much.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,691
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2011, 12:57:26 AM »
Thanks linuxboy.

The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 288
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 07:10:05 PM »
The idea that using more helveticus creates a parmesan type flavour profile is interesting as  I thought it would push things along in the direction of a nutty sweet swiss type flavour.  Any comments here?

Thanks.

NVD

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 07:58:25 PM »
Again, strain specific. If you use a typical parm helveticus and start adding it in at around .4%, it will start tasting more and more like a parm. But if you use a helveticus that produces different combo of proteases, then it will contribute additional flavors.

But even in all that, have to consider that flavor formation has to do with rate of reaction and limiting factors within the cheese. So if you add a ton of enzymes via extra cells, it's not a foregone conclusion that the intensity of certain flavors will continue to increase. It does to a degree, until about .4% bulk for most helveticus. It works as a system.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,691
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 05:33:43 PM »
Hi,

I had missed this.  The label on mine says for swiss type cheeses, so I'm suspecting it's of the Swiss strain.  I've added it to my last two butterkase.  The first one I also washed the rind, so the change in flavour was mostly due to that.  My recent make just has the LH addition (so it's not really a butterkase any more), and we'll see where that ends up. 

Hmmm, the first one had formed quite a few small eyes.  Does LH produce a bit of gass?

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 05:47:27 PM »
Quote
The label on mine says for swiss type cheeses, so I'm suspecting it's of the Swiss strain
Likely, that label came from a reseller or retail supplier. Which culture? The suppliers, helpful as they may be, are often clueless about the origins. So it's hard to say... technically one may use any culture for any cheese.

Also, LH is not uses for most swiss styles any more, except as a limited adjunct. It drops pH too much, causes defects. Preferred nowadays is delbrueckii.

Quote
Does LH produce a bit of gass?
no.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,691
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 07:20:07 PM »
Hi LB,

It just says " lactobacillus helveticus, good for swiss type cheeses" (or something to that effect).  It's interesting you say it drops pH too much as I've noticed the two makes I used it in ended up floc'ing much faster than any other make, even though I used the same amount of rennet.  I was figuring the LH must have caused the acidity to increase more rapidly and this interacted with my rennet.  My next make was going to get adjusted to compensate.

Hmmm, but no gas.  Must be the buttermilk starter I used, though it's not produced eyes in other cheeses.  Curious.  I'll wait to see if this next make does the same thing.  It may have been a one-off occurrence.

Thanks.

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 07:36:05 PM »
Quote
lactobacillus helveticus, good for swiss type cheeses
As in emmenthaler? Something that needs eyes? It's terrible for emmentaler, almost always will lead to post-acidification defects. Emmentaler can't go beyond 5.3 too much, the paste will be wrong for good eye formation. For other swiss-region cheeses like gruyere, it's alright.

Quote
I was figuring the LH must have caused the acidity to increase more rapidly and this interacted with my rennet.
possible synergistic effect, yes. More so, I meant at salt and pre-terminal. It wants to keep going past 5.3-5.4 all the way to 5.0, and for eye cheeses, this is terrible.

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline JeffHamm

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Auckland, New Zealand
  • Posts: 2,691
  • Cheeses: 162
  • As goes the cheesemaker, so goes the cheese
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2012, 08:27:53 PM »
Hi LB,

I don't think it gets specific, as in what type of swiss cheese!  I'll double check later though.

Got you on the final acidity progression.  I think it must be doing something during ripening though, as my floc time has been pretty reliable and only the two makes where I used LH has it set up much quicker.

- Jeff
The wise do not always start out on the right path, but they do know when to change course.


Guests, join the CheeseForum.org community to remove this ad.


Online H-K-J

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: South-east ID
  • Posts: 1,310
  • Cheeses: 85
  • Act as if it were impossible to fail.
    • Cookin with uh dash dogs hair
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2012, 01:13:15 PM »
I am planing on a Swiss this next week and have purchased LH this is what the supplier has posted on his site;
LH Series (20 doses)
(LB) Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp
(LH) Lactobacillus helveticus
(freeze-dried direct set/DVI-Direct Vat Inoculation)
Used in combination with TA culture for hard cheese, Italian types and Swiss.Use approximately 1/10 tsp.(.23g) for 1-10 gal.(3.7-37 liters) of milk.
Now I am rethinking, from what linuxboy has said
As in emmenthaler? Something that needs eyes? It's terrible for emmentaler, almost always will lead to post-acidification defects. Emmentaler can't go beyond 5.3 too much, the paste will be wrong for good eye formation. For other swiss-region cheeses like gruyere, it's alright.
possible synergistic effect, yes. More so, I meant at salt and pre-terminal. It wants to keep going past 5.3-5.4 all the way to 5.0, and for eye cheeses, this is terrible.
Now  I am totally confused and am wondering if I should even use it, guess I better do some more research?
"Happiness is not the absence of conflict,
But the ability to cope with it."

Online Sailor Con Queso

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Kentucky
  • Posts: 2,541
  • Cheeses: 127
    • Boone Creek Creamery
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2012, 06:31:37 PM »
Think of TA as "Thermo Acidifier". The Strep. thermophilus in TA is a strong acid producer but is inefficient in converting all of the lactose. Simply put, because it is producing acid so quickly, as the pH drops, it literally starts killing itself and can't finish the job. Consequently, the pH will stall. TA-50 for example will not drop below 5.2-5.3. The LH or Lactobacillus helveticus on the other hand is a weaker acidifier, but does a better job at converting more lactose at the end. So the TA comes on earlier and strong, while the LH is responsible for the finishing touches on the pH (sometimes too much). That's why it is often recommended to use the 2 cultures together.

The ratios of each culture to use is your choice. I personally use a 50/50 blend with Swiss types and a 20/80 (TA/LH) blend with Parms and Italian types. The increased acidity from the extra LH contributes to a hard, grating texture.

I'm sure LB is correct, but I have not seen any reference to defects from using LH in Swiss types. I do find that intriguing and may have to give the LB a try instead of the LH on my next Swiss. In any case, the final pH is critical to good paste and eye formation.
A moldy Stilton is a thing of beauty. Yes, you eat the rind. - Ed
www.boonecreekcreamery.com

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 288
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2012, 06:51:57 PM »
Thanks for that succinct description in the different activities of those beasties.  I learnt something.

NVD.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2012, 09:57:49 PM »
Sailor, it's very common in literature (peer-reviewed articles in academic pubs). It's actually kind of old news... the switch commercially by all large swiss makers happened in the 80s IIRC. Nobody uses helveticus any more in emmentaler or american (rindless) swiss. It's all delbrueckii + TA. I can try to dig up some articles and email them to you if you want, but it's kind of boring stuff. 20 pages with 1 conclusion type of stuff.

Now this is not to say it's not possible to make swiss with helveticus. It was done for many many years. And I'm sure anyone can do it again. But... the results are less consistent due to the very behavior you describe, which is continuous metabolism and acidification. With propionic and paste needs, if that cheese goes to even 5.2, the risk for paste defects (splitting, etc) rises drastically. So why fight it? Helveticus wants to acidify. Swiss doesn't do well with late acidification. So culture switch to delbrueckii and call it done. Which is exactly what the industry did.

Quote
Now  I am totally confused and am wondering if I should even use it, guess I better do some more research?
Not sure what you're confused about or what research you need to do. I just gave you definitive best practices. You can use helveticus, of course. Chances are it will turn out fine, especially when you baby cheeses and make 1-2 at a time. But, if you want less risk and more consistency, use delbrueckii. Flavor wise, does not matter that much. For more flavor in swissies, add lacococci NSLAB, or cheat and add some FD (or other LD type culture).

Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Online H-K-J

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: South-east ID
  • Posts: 1,310
  • Cheeses: 85
  • Act as if it were impossible to fail.
    • Cookin with uh dash dogs hair
Re: Lactobacillus Helveticus
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2012, 09:29:12 AM »
Not sure what you're confused about or what research you need to do. I just gave you definitive best practices. You can use helveticus, of course. Chances are it will turn out fine, especially when you baby cheeses and make 1-2 at a time. But, if you want less risk and more consistency, use delbrueckii. Flavor wise, does not matter that much. For more flavor in swissies, add lacococci NSLAB, or cheat and add some FD (or other LD type culture).
Well thanks for that L-B
I think I will just run with the L H (since I have already bought it) and try what Sailor suggests, I will be making a 4 gallon batch and I can see that I had better get some way of checking P H and as for my research I'll be getting a hold of the supplier and see what their recommendations are.
"Happiness is not the absence of conflict,
But the ability to cope with it."