whey vs curd pH question

[anutcanfly]

I like to track the pH after hooping, but some cheese don't give off enough whey past the initial pressing for my pH meter to work on.  So here's my question:  does the whey already collected continue to acidify at the same rate as the curd.  Can I use that original whey to predict what's happening in the curd during pressing?

[linuxboy]

does the whey already collected continue to acidify at the same rate as the curd.

No, slower

Can I use that original whey to predict what's happening in the curd during pressing?

yes, by modeling rate of predicted change and correcting (way geeky, ultimately not so useful), or by using it as a guideline to help you understand what the curd is really doing and making decisions (more accurate in real life). pH isn't everything

[anutcanfly]

Thanks for the reply linuxboy,

Sigh... pH isn't everything, but I would like to make a cheese once in a while that melts!    I've been salting or brining, ranging from 5.2 to 5.8 hoping to nail it by trial and error, but it will be up to 7 months before all the results come in.  The Lancashire I cut into recently was pH 5.6 after salting & hooping... looks good and tastes great but doesn't melt! 

[linuxboy]

meltability is not a function of only pH. Also, when you say melt, what do you mean? Because rheologically, we measure several aspects of cheese texture, including meltability (basically, does it "puddle" when heat is applied), stretchability, and off-oiling (fat release).

Does your cheese really not puddle when heat is applied? What kind of behavior do you expect?

[Cloversmilker]

This is something I too am curious about.  My pressed cheeses typically don't melt well at all.  They will "crisp" instead of melt.  They do get soft, but do not puddle and do not release fat.  Good flavor, etc; but do not melt.  They aren't 'low fat' as I use full Jersey milk.   

[linuxboy]

We've had a few threads about this, and Debi posted a copy of a wisconsin dairy pipeline article that covers some details.... but what cheeses/make details are relevant for you? Which cheeses? Because cheese after aging should melt in most cases. The degree will vary, but it should still melt.

[FRANCOIS]

Agree, except the pH comment.  pH is everything 99% of the time.  The three reasons cheese won't "melt", which I am defining as loss of shape and slumping:

-pH never falls below 6.0 (haloumi)
-low fat (parm)
-low moisture (aged gouda)

I suspect you are suffering from low moisture, hence it only crisping.

Good luck.

[linuxboy]

I would say ph+time is the cause most of the time. Example:
- I make a high calcium, low moisture style that I fuse at 6.5.
- It goes to 5.5 in the mold over 6 hours, I salt
- I don't age it at all

This cheese will almost certainly not puddle well until a year or so into aging, after the protein has broken down.

Similarly:
- Fuse at 6.45
- Acidify to 4.7 over 12 hours
- Age 2 months

Will have very poor meltability.

In both cases, it's the way the calcium bonds form that make a difference in the sense of how the acid influence the curds in vat and then during fuse/mold. But neither of those are very good makes. With normal makes (drain 6.1-6.3, salt 5.2-5.4), generally not an issue.

[Cloversmilker]

Thank you for the feedback.

I suspect that the cause for my cheeses not melting is low moisture.  The cheeses in question have been aged (as long as 2 years in some cases) jacks, goudas, and farmhouse cheddars. 

I don't have a pH meter    but am fairly confident that the makes were okay. 

[anutcanfly]

I looked over my notes for the Lancashire.  I used store bought whole cow milk and the yield after pressing was 3 lbs 14 oz.  The expected yeild was supposed to be 3 1lb 4oz.  I assumed that meant the cheese was moister then it should have been.  The make went well, the pH at drain was 5.9 and after salting and hooping 5.6 (higher than expect.  As it was my first make of this cheese I followed the instructions in 200 Easy cheeses without changing anything, I just took notes.  Pressed at 35 lbs for an hour, then 90 lbs for 6 hours.  It had been aged 2 months.  As far as I can tell this cheese should melt!  What am I missing??     Is this cheese to young still?

[dthelmers]

Try salting and hooping at 5.4. That's what I do, and mine melt. I've made the Lancashire from 200 Easy, and make the Caerphilly often. My last Caerphilly I increased the floc multiplier to 4x, and cut the curd a tad larger so the cheese would be a bit moister. It melts perfectly. The slightly higher moisture content lets the cheese flow more when melted, which I do over broccoli.

[anutcanfly]

Yep.  That's sounds like a plan.  Increase moisture and salt/brine at whey pH 5.5 to 5.4, for a target curd pH of 5.2.  At least for those cheeses that are still draining enough whey to test.  The rest I'm just going to have to guess at. 

[dthelmers]

I've got an ExTech 100 meter, which has a flat probe. I press it onto the curd mat while cheddaring, wiggling it a little to seat it, and take my reading. I don't know if it's giving an accurate reading this way, but the readings I get are where I would expect them to be. I also test the pressed cheese this way.

[anutcanfly]

I pretty sure I would break mine if I did that!  If I have problems with my current one again I think I will get one the allows you to test the curd.  Do you like your extech?

[dthelmers]

I have two of them, and I like them pretty well. They take a little time to adjust to temperature, though, so I try to keep it in a glass of warm water when I'm going to need a quick reading.