Author Topic: Sour tasting Havarti  (Read 11888 times)

Offline MacGruff

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Sour tasting Havarti
« on: November 24, 2011, 02:21:40 PM »
Hi everyone,

I am trying to make Havarti following ther recipe in the book "Artisan Cheese Making At Home". I will be glad to give you the blow by blow of what I did, but for now, let me say that I followed everything in the recipe precisely and was really liking the way things were proceeding. The milk set up right, there was a clean break when it was supposed to happen, and washing the curds had them shrinking the way they should. After storing the cheese overnight in the fridge, the recipe states that it can be eaten right then, or allowed to age. I decided to taste a small sliver and that is where my problem/question lies:

The cheese looked right and had the right consistency, but upon tasting, it tastes sour.

I am using a non-homogenized millk from a local farmer - but it is pasteurized. The culture used was MM100 from The Dairy Connection which I ordered about a week ago. Calcium Chloride from the same source and time, and a vegetable based Rennet bought two days ago from a local store with an expiration date on it in 2013.

Any ideas what went wrong?

Also, is it salveagble? I currently have the cheese in a brine the fridge (in accordance with the recipe instructions). Thanks for any help,

AND...

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!!


margaretsmall

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2011, 09:26:54 PM »
I'm new at this too, but I've been experimenting with Havarti lately - there are a lot of different recipes out there, which makes it confusing. I've decided to age mine a bit - I'm waxing after the cheese has air-dried after brining, then into my cave at 10oC for a couple of weeks. We've  eaten the first and my husband said it was my best cheese yet - it was about 7 weeks old when we cracked it.  The second, using the Smith recipe, was a failure - I didn't wax but put it in the cave when it was still a bit damp and it went very soft and developed some mold after about two weeks (didn't help that I had to go away for a week and so it didn't get the usual tender loving care!) so I moved it into the fridge.   It tasted a bit tangy, but was OK in a lasagne sauce, so maybe you could use it up that way. My first havarti was made from the recipe in Willman 'Home Cheesemaking'  and it's unusual as you put it in a cold water bath between the draining and the brine bath. That recipe doesn't press, I think it's better to give it a light press, which is what I've done for the 3rd attempt, using Willman again.  I made one this week from Morris 'Cheesemakers Manual' which specifies a 4 hour press and no cold water bath, so it will be interesting to compare them

I think that you haven't done anything wrong, it just needs to age a bit. It's probably not too late to take it out of the brine, air dry it and then age it a bit in your cave.
Margaret

Tomer1

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2011, 05:21:21 AM »
Sounds like it was overly acidified, the Ph after pressing was too low.
You didnt mention anything about salting, did you?

Offline MacGruff

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2011, 01:45:51 PM »
Yes, I did salt it.

When I wrote the original post, I had it in brine. i took it out of the brine, patted the cheese dry and left it sitting at room temp. This morning, a rind started forming. It looks all slippery but is damp to the touch. I flipped it over and put it in a wine refrigerator that I am using as a quasi-cheese-cave along with a bowl of water to help the humidity levels. I'll keep flipping it daily and we'll see what happens.

How long should I wait before tasting it again?

Thanks for the suggestions.

Offline MacGruff

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2011, 04:09:22 PM »
Another couple of questions, since Tomer1 mentioned over-acidic:

1.   What should the pH range of the cheese be at various stages? (I have a pH meter and can check it, but what is correct?)
2.   If it is too low, what do I add to make it less acidic? (I know in the reverse case I can add Citric Acid).

Thanks again,

Tomer1

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2011, 11:18:09 AM »
You cant really reverse it,whats done is done. Aging will take some of the tanginess away.

Here you go,recipe with Ph targets.   
http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/pg/208-Havarti.html

There seems to be a step where the cheese is left over night in water before brining. Perhaps its meant to wash some of the acid or calcium?

margaretsmall

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2011, 10:18:16 PM »
That's right, some recipes, but not all, have a step between pressing and brining of bathing in cold water for varying times. I have two in my cave now, one made with this step and one without, so, in time, I'll be able to report if there's any difference.

Offline MacGruff

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 01:16:41 AM »
Thanks Tomer and Margaretsmall,

I have not thrown the cheese out, instead it is in a wine fridge, aging. As of this morning, a hard rind is forming. I flip it daily.

Others have mentioned that the tanginess will evaporate with time. My question now, is how long to wait? I know that I can wait a long time, but since this is my first attempt, I would want to try it young to learn how it develops (and get started on the next batch with making adjustments to see improvements.). So, what would you recommend? I am thinkg of letting it age for two more weeks and then try it. What do you think I should be tasting at that point?

margaretsmall

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 11:07:25 PM »
Hi McGuff,
Havarti is described as having  a mild paste and a flexible texture, which is right, on the basis of my very brief experience! This is what my first effort looks like - I made it on 21st Sept and cut the first one (6l made 2xcamembert size cheeses) on 10th Nov. and the second about 3 days ago. Both delicious. (now to try to insert a photo - wish me luck).
Margaret

Offline MacGruff

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 11:26:15 PM »
I see that you succeeded in your picture upload. Congrats!

One of these days, I'll get up the nerve to take pics of my cheeses and upload them too - right now I am too nervous about my efforts as a rookie....

I see you waxed your cheese. I am not, and I do not believe I have seen Havartis waxed whenever I bought it. Why did you decide to do so? Also, your cheese looks incredibly creamy. What kind of milk did you use? I have seen Havartis advertised as "triple cream"... was that one of the things you did?

Looks good though!

margaretsmall

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2011, 11:32:04 PM »
Funny you should mention waxing, as I'm in the middle of trying to wax no. 4 and am in a terrible mess. As soon as I use up this wax I'm going to buy a vacuum sealer gadget.  The little ones were easy to handle, but this one is in a 15cm mold and awfully hard to handle. Several of the havarti recipes suggest waxing after the cheese has dried off.I think if you want to keep the cheese for a bit, rather than eat it straight away, it's a good idea, easier than trying to keep the blue mold off! Maybe one of our more expert members might like to comment on the pros and cons of waxing.

I used bog-standard supermarket PH milk, no cream, but I did add CaCl. I still have very fragile curds, which is a bit of a hassle. This week I made an edam (very similar make to havarti) using 4l low fat PH milk and 2 l full cream organic, non-homogenized milk and got a great curd so maybe I'll have to wear the additional cost of the good milk.
Best wishes
Margaret

Offline MacGruff

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2011, 12:00:01 AM »
New problem seems to be developing, my cheese disk is developing cracks in it. I have been flipping the cheese daily and noticed (with pleasure) that the rind has been forming nicely and it is getting quite hard by feel. Today, when i went to flip it, there were crack radiating from the outside in. Not all the way, but definitely deep beyond the rind and two or three on each side of the cheese.

I expect that this is related to low humidity levels in my wine fridge which is keeping the cheese at 54 degrees F. In anticipation of this problem, I lightly brushed a thin layer of oil on the cheese before starting the aging process and included a bowl of water in the fridge. The bowl still has about two thirds of the water in it. The cheese itself feels dry.

Should I have been oiling more?
How do I 'fix' this? Do I need to fix it?
Any other ideas besides low humidity?

Should i eat it now and try again?

I know I am full of questions, but I am sure that others here have dealt with these problems before and can help. So, thanks for your suggestions!

margaretsmall

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2011, 09:04:51 PM »
Hi McGuff,
I've not had a cracking problem yet, so I can't suggest anything from experience, but there's a wicki on cracks with a wonderful picture of a gouda which cracked horribly. If I knew how to put a link in here I would, but I don't, so  search the forum under 'cracking rind' and you'll find it. There's lots of threads which touch on the problem, which seems to be quite common. Sounds like low humidity might be the problem. Do post a photo, I'd love to compare with my efforts.
Margaret

Offline MacGruff

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2011, 01:37:13 AM »
Thanks Margaret, I'll look for it.

I am quite sure the problem is related to low humidity in the wine fridge I am using for a cave. I am in the U.S. and with it being winter here, the forced air heating is on which causes the air in the house to be very dry. I was attempting to keep the humidity up in the fridge by leaving a bowl of water in the fridge, but the water level did not go down too much in the first three days. Yesterday, I read on this forum that I should have inserted a small cloth to help the moisture wick up and dissipate better, so I did so this morning. By the time I got back from work tonight, all the water had evaporated, so it is definitely dry in there.

I will continue to replace water, flip the cheese, and hope. I will probably try it in a week or two to gauge whether the sourness disappeared. I am planning on making a larger sample in 10 days (business trips between now and then do not allow my time to make the new batch sooner).

Will report back in time.

iratherfly

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Re: Sour tasting Havarti
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2011, 01:46:23 AM »
MacGruff - for a second there I thought like Tomer that your cheese was too acidified. I went back to your original message to see if you have any texture or melting comments and see how you made it. Typically an acidic cheese will be hard, crumbly, chalky and won't melt. I do not see that you mentioned any of that but one thing did pop up that left me like "...that recipe said what????"

Let me get this right in case I misunderstood: Did your recipe say you can make Havarti and eat it the next day???  Are you sure???  This makes no sense at all whatsoever, not by a long shot.  Which brings me to the subject of sour taste - this is very typical of un-aged cheese and I think that's all there's to it here.

This type of cheese needs a few days for the acidity to start climbing back up. It takes a while for it to turn yellow too. Further bacterial activity then begins to build rind flora, lactate buildup and lactose digestion, converting sugars and proteins to the gas that create the small eyes (holes) in Havarti. There is a long term enzymatic activity: proteolysis process (breakdown of proteins - this is what matures the cheese and gives it the texture) and Lipolysis (the breakdown of fatty acids which builds up the sharpness of its flavor). Yeasts build aromatic propertiesand gas. Other bacteria from your starter now enhances the flavors; Diacetyls for example make up buttery flavors, or Helveticus create nutty flavors Lipase can create bitterness and sharpness ...you get the idea. There is also succession effect, microorganisms convert one substance to another and the new substance kicks off a totally new bacteria with its own set of flavors, aroma and texture contribution.  Then, there is the aspect of safety: These microorganisms outgrow pathogens and render a safer cheese that shouldn't spoil.  In short, it's a microscopic garden and zoo in one; a little happening and lively ecosystem. Managing this craziness to your liking is the real art of cheesemaking. It's a patient process that takes weeks if not months. So, unless you are making yogurt, spreadable cheese or a flavorless lazy cheese (Paneer or Queso Fresco), arm yourself with an extra dose of patience, hope and sarcasm. It takes time and doesn't always work.

Your Havarti is probably a success. Just age it for a couple of months and resist temptation to try it until then. (I suppose now that you've tasted it you need to close it somehow. Can you vacuum it? Is it still fairly moist?)

As for your other problem with the cracking: This happens when a cheese loses too much moisture too quickly. Add moisture to the environment. Use an aging container for example to lock moist air inside.  What's your cave humidity like?  (again, vacuuming will resolve this issue). This could also happen if your cheese is bloating - is that happening?  That happens usually due to contamination or fermented animal feed.