'Raw milk' farmer fined, placed on probation.

[pliezar (Ian)]

As I have stated before, it is illegal to purchase Raw Milk in Canada (The only G8 Country to ban it) due to "health concerns"  Raw Milk advocate and former Cow Share operator Michael Schmidt was convicted of selling raw milk in September and now was sentenced today in a Newmarket Ontario Court.  He was fined $9,150 and placed on a year's probation Friday for making and providing raw milk and cheese through a cow-share business.  The rest of the article can be found here 'Raw milk' farmer fined, placed on probation.

I am constantly wondering why we are not allowed buy raw milk, but if I owned a cow I am allowed to have it.  For all the things I love about my country, this is one thing I don't.  There are cow shares all over the country,for how long I don't know, but none so far in my area, and I have been looking.

And now I will step off my soapbox.

Ian

[fied]

The same is true of Scotland. Everywhere else in the UK raw milk can be purchased directly from producers, though not through retail outlets. It's mad.

I'd have to cross the border to buy raw milk, yet 5 mins. drive from me, a farmer with a herd of Holstein-Friesians can't sell to me, though he does sell to the big dairies in the locality who then proceed to pasteurize and homogenize the guts out of the milk, which is then sold on to supermarkets.

[darius]

Yes it's mad, particularly in view of the health benefits of fresh (raw) milk and the statistics of how few outbreaks there have been from fresh milk vs. vegetables and meats. What angers me more is that it is MY body, and I should have a choice what to put in it.

I live in Virginia where raw milk sales are illegal.

[Tomer1]

Your right but say "its my body" is not really true in our society since it poses an economical burden in case you do get sick,
Getting you hospitalized and treated costs money, not to mention the who knows how many sick days you will have to be paid untill your fit for work again.

The taxes you pay dont even come close to paying the true medical costs since the system is so inflated.

Anyone's involved in this cow share consept?
I have a farmer just minutes from my house but he refuses to sell me milk or barter for cheese.
Maybe I can convince him with this idea.

[pliezar (Ian)]

Your right but say "its my body" is not really true in our society since it poses an economical burden in case you do get sick,
Getting you hospitalized and treated costs money, not to mention the who knows how many sick days you will have to be paid untill your fit for work again.

The taxes you pay dont even come close to paying the true medical costs since the system is so inflated.

If there is a standard on how Raw Milk is handled then that should minimize the risk.  I think it is that fact that this choice to have Raw Milk has been taken out of my hands and placed in the hands of others is what is at the heart of the matter.  If there was even an "Informed Consent" I think it would even be better than none.  Heck have you ever read the warning label on a can of Red Bull, and kids can buy that stuff. 

We have Universal Healthcare here, it is a costly part of our Provincial Budget and our taxes don't cover all the costs, I agree with this.  But again it comes down to the basic ability to choose what I eat and having the knowledge to make the choice.  I don't know, but if Raw Milk is such a health risk, then why is it ok for the the farmer to consume it?

Anyone's involved in this cow share consept?
I have a farmer just minutes from my house but he refuses to sell me milk or barter for cheese.
Maybe I can convince him with this idea.

You can probably contact any cow share on this list for some information on how it is done, I am sure they might help in some way.  I am trying to find one close to where I live, with no luck though.

I really appreciate the input and discussion on this.  Thanks.

Ian

[linuxboy]

I don't know, but if Raw Milk is such a health risk, then why is it ok for the the farmer to consume it?

Mostly, because it is too costly to police private consumption. There is also the idea that private citizens should be able to enjoy private goods, but if the philosophy of state control for "public good" is taken to its logical consequences, private consumption should be outlawed because per the official position, it poses an inherent risk and associated cost of becoming ill.

Anyone's involved in this cow share consept?

What would you like to know?

As for Michael, hope he continues to stay strong and the amazing community up there continues to be united.

[darius]

Well said, Ian. And kudos to Michael for his determined stand for his beliefs!

Tomer, so as not to start an argument on this civilized site, I am going to refrain from more comments other than reiterating that what I put in my body should be my choice. I could not convince anyone that safely produced raw milk is good, anymore than someone could convince me it's full of disaster.

When I happen to buy cheese, I search for raw milk cheese because I know it is more alive and vital (not to mention taste) than the cheese I could buy (or what I've made) from P/H milk. That's MY choice in buying cheese, only I'm not allowed to buy the milk it's made from. Go figure.

I've only had access to raw goat milk, and the cheese I made from it has all been aged 60 days or more, simply by the type of cheese rather than fear of possible contamination in the milk.

[pliezar (Ian)]

As for Michael, hope he continues to stay strong and the amazing community up there continues to be united.

Boofer,

Michael has stated that he will not pay the fine and will appeal the decision within the 30 day time frame allowed.  He stated that if he pays the fine, it will be the same as admitting guilt and he would rather go to jail on the principle alone.  The CBC (Our National Broadcaster) did a poll about the fine and another one about selling Raw Milk and both came out in support of Michael Schmidt.

Here is hoping the government listens.

Ian

[Tomer1]

  What would you like to know?

How does one successfully approach a clueless farmer with the subject?
Many have only known to meet minimum quality demands for the big monopolist dairies who control the market.

What are the avarage costs and conditions - I want the best for my cow and the best milk aswell for a fair price both for me and the farmer.

Obviously legality is different in israel and the US so I need to look further into this and consult some local cheese experts.
Ee too are forbiden to buy or import\trade raw milk dairy products in israel, but no one gets arrested if he sells some raw cow\goat\sheep stuff on the "black market" sort of speak.

All dairies must have a pasteurizer on site and seperate enterance for milk delivery,seperate storage rooms for dry stuff and refrigirated stuff like cultures,seperate brining room, floor and wall lamination\covers.
Rules are very strict which makes setting up even a small dairy very expenssive and prohibiting.
Many of the people you find in this business have had "normal" day jobs for 30-40 years and toward their retirment decided to transition to cheesemakers and used alot of their savings to set up.

The most anoying thing is that you start up with a huge debt which just drags on and on.

There are alot of "underground" people operating illegally though, raising 20-30 goats and selling the cheese locally. espacially common among arab villeges.

I almost set up a local milk connection with an arab who graze his nubian goats daily not too far from me,
He changed his mind saying he doesnt have surplus to sell.   

[linuxboy]

Tomer, I am unfamiliar with regulations in Israel, so I have no idea if any of this is doable for you. However, I'll try my best.

How does one successfully approach a clueless farmer with the subject?

In the industry, personal relationships account for a great deal. I would research the farmers in the area to see who is clean, what the management practices are, and to get a general feel for the farms. And then, show up and ask. When you ask, I would follow this script:
- Say you want to buy milk. Farmer will say no.
- Ask what the hesitation is, ask about why the farmer says no.
- After listening to the explanation about legalities, ask if the farmer would be interested in an alternative legal arrangement.
- If farmer is not interested, leave, come back another day, maybe bring a bit of cheese, or something to try and build a better relationship.
- If farmer is interested, introduce the concept of farm shares, herd shares, and cow shares.
- Explain that it should be possible to legally have you own a cow or part of a cow, and retain the milk from it.
- Explain how what you propose is for the farmer to take care of the animal and milk, and you would keep the milk.
- Explain that there are several possible arrangements. They are
    - You own entire cow, farmer milks, you pay monthly flat fee for fee and care, you retain all milk.
    - You own title to undivided shares of the cow, and you together with other people are entitled to a fixed amount of milk for a fixed monthly fee.
    - You own title to the rights of the milk that the cow produces, farmer retains ownership of cow and production. You are entitled to fixed amount for a fixed fee per month.


- Ask if any of those sound interesting. If so, follow up. If not, ask if there are reservations... basically, the reason for saying no, and try to overcome the objections. Ask what it would take to get milk.

What are the avarage costs and conditions - I want the best for my cow and the best milk aswell for a fair price both for me and the farmer.

Ask the farmer to do a cost+profit model. The farmer knows the costs, will tell you what it takes. Then figure out a profit for the farmer so the farmer can have a paycheck.

There are alot of "underground" people operating illegally though, raising 20-30 goats and selling the cheese locally. espacially common among arab villeges.

This is your other route. Contact people who raise goats, as if you want to buy a goat, to see the breeders. Then ask if they will sell milk. Also ask if they will not sell it for human consumption, if they will sell it for animal consumption of for soap making.

[Tomer1]

That sounds like a plan!
Thank you.

[Guernsey Goodness]

This is all the more reason to be against "socialized medicine". If someone claims that health care is a right guaranteed by the goverment, the goverment is going to take care of them from "cradle to the grave" they will treat you as if you are in the cradle (as a child). It's "give and take" you give your freedom, they take it and control almost every aspect of your life.  There is not a more accurate phrase than "no free lunch" when talking about governments' hand-outs.

[Tomer1]

If everyone had to care for his own ,one would have to be extremly wealthy to get proper care.
I dont think its right for someone who is unfortunate or even doesnt want to work for some reason to not recieve the best care. 

I had 3 MRIs the past couple of years , I cant imagine how much that would have cost me in a privatized or even semi privatized health system.

[Sailor Con Queso]

Just to get this thread back on track.

Kentucky has pending legislation (SB-47) to legalize cow shares. Right now it is not explicitly illegal or legal, which leaves it up to interpretation by enforcement officials. This seems to be a direct result of the ongoing efforts in Wisconsin to legalize raw milk. Even though last year it passed the legislature but was vetoed by the Governor of Wisconsin, the fact that they "almost" legalized it made our Milk Safety Board take notice.

[H-K-J]

Hi everyone.
 just signed up in the forum and have been enjoying all the information, quite amazing,  but on the raw milk subject, around my area their are only 2 raw milk sellers ( or I should say legal sellers)  this is a quote from one of them;
 G's Dairy (600 Handcart Lane)             208-359-5443      . Fresh Raw milk from three brown Swiss cows that are fed a natural diet of alfalfa hay and a little bit of corn grain at milking time. No hormones given to the cows. www.gsdairy.com. The milk is tested monthly for quality. Available in gallons and half gallons. The facility is registered with the state of Idaho and can sell Raw milk legally. 
This one is 25 miles away and the other is about 50 miles so of course I went to this one, the milk wasn't 24 hours  old and the yield was half again what I can get from store bought whole milk, this part I really liked , the taste and smell of the milk is so much more appetizing than the store bought it took a little searching to find anyone around here with safe (?) whole milk. $6.85 a gallon but the difference was worth it.
I guess what my point is with a little searching and some luck, at least in the states, you can find it near enough to  get it  and nobody goes to jail, at least here there are state regulated standards that help make a safe choice.
My choice is some regulation is safer than no regulation, just my 2 cents. ( I do love this Forum though)
 H-K-J