Author Topic: Newbie failed first attempt  (Read 2536 times)

scarin

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Newbie failed first attempt
« on: February 06, 2012, 09:06:48 PM »
Just decided recently that making cheese with my kids could be a fun family project with great edible results. Got the Fias recipe and ordered my ingredients and took the plunge this weekend. Used whole store bought milk from a local provider.  First batch I only put in half the rennet as I didn't follow the directions well. Second batch had ingredients right. I think in both batches, even though I followed the recipe pretty carefully I needed much more time for the clean break. Obviously not sure what one is and thought I got it but after cutting the curds I got a big cottage cheese like mass of very soft wet curds. They hung for 6 plus hours and never drained or firmed up. I did use just a single pot and my temp did hit around 93 degrees during the process.  I am going to keep trying. The recipe calls for letting the curd sit approximately 15 minutes after adding the rennet until clean break.   I think I need longer, but should I be concerned about leaving it too long? Anything else I should be looking out for? Thanks

JeffHamm

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 11:00:17 PM »
Hi scarin,

Welcome to the world of cheesemaking.  Sounds like things sort of when ok, as you did get a curd and you've drained it (sort of).  One thing, when draining in a bag, you may need to scrap the bottom a bit to keep the moisture flowing (and it doesn't hurt to break up the curd in the bag a bit too).

As for figuring when to cut, a fairly easy way to determine that is to use what is called the flocculation method.  The "floc point" is the point in time when the rennet causes the milk to "gell".  A fairly easy way to figure that out is to take a small light plastic bowl (something like a single serve ice cream container), I use a small tupperware type container that could be used to hold baby food.  Anyway, when you add the rennet to the milk, write down the time (i.e. 10:51:00).  Float the bowl in the milk (make sure it's clean and sterile of course).  It will sail around with just a light tap, because the milk is just a liquid.  Wait 5 minutes, then Every minute, give the bowl a light tap again.  At some point, it will be less free floating and will come to a stop quicker.  The milk is starting to thicken.  When you've got definite interference in your bowl's movement, start tapping it every 30 seconds.  Eventually, the bowl won't move at all when you just nudge it.  It will just act like a cartoon character with their feet in glue (move, but get pulled back into place).  That is the "floc point".  Write down the time (i.e.11:02:30).  Now, that means 11 minutes and 30 seconds have passed since we added the rennet.  That's good, because we want the "floc time" to be somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes.  If it is faster than 10 minutes, we used too much rennet and the next time we should use less (and longer than 15 minutes means too little, so use a bit more the next time). 

If you are making mozzarella, you then take this 11.5 minutes and multiple by 3 to get 34.5 minutes.  That means we cut the curds 34.5 minutes after the time we added the rennet (so 34.5 minutes after 10:51:00).  We don't check for clean breaks, we just cut at that time.

What this means, is that the exact amount of time you wait will vary a bit each time you make the same cheese, but this is because the rennet and milk are reacting a bit different each time (a touch more rennet was added, the feed the animal was eating changed, etc). 

Search the forum and you will find lots on this method.  Also, I've posted an excel book in a few places that includes some simple utilities that will help in determining times and such (it's called "CheeseTools.xls").

- Jeff

Tobiasrer

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 05:30:26 AM »
Thanks jeff for the great discription, I thought I kinda had it but now I know I do!
How do I know what kind of floc my cheese needs? I assume mozza is different then parm or cheddar, so is there an easy cheat sheet around?
as I dont see anything in my recipes about floc.

Cloversmilker

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 06:09:14 AM »
Here's the wiki with floc multipliers for some types of cheese.  Scroll down to #3.   :)
http://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-cheese-curds-when-to-cut/

JeffHamm

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 06:25:42 AM »
Hi Tobiasrer,

The books will just put a time, and not mention floc times, or pH targets.  But basically, floc time is the information that tells you how the rennet and milk are working together on that particular day for that particular make.  Since that varies it is not suprising that you have to adjust the make procedure in order to obtain the same result.

Now, since floc times should be 10-15 minutes, you can backwards calculate a rough estimate.  A book time of 45 minutes is probably a 3x floc (3 x 15), and so forth (I generally find books convert to floc best if you assume a 15 minute floc time rather than a 10 minute one).  I've copied some tables that people have posted, along with some of their comments (I apologise to the original posters for not recording who posted these in the first place).

These give you some general starting points, but remember, this is more like alchemy than chemistry and you should tweak these to suit your preferences.  Using a longer floc and cutting the curds a bit bigger than indicated in a recipe will lead to a moister cheese, which will probably ripen a bit faster, etc.  You might prefer this result.  Or, use a shorter floc, cut the curds a bit smaller, and get a drier cheese more  suited for longer aging, etc.  For example, I know Dave has modified a caerphilly make along these lines (longer floc larger curd) and he found this made for a really good moist melting cheese that still had the caerphilly flavours.  Understanding how floc times and curd size work together to influence your cheese gives you the understanding to craft your cheese to your preferences, rather than just blinding following the step by steps in the recipe book.  You can use the books as a starting point, which you can modify your own way.  If you like to tinker with things, this gives you the knowledge to tinker with.

"- Grana/Parmesan, Alpine/Swiss = multiplier x of 2 to x2.5
- Cheddar, Havarti, Tomme, Gouda, Provalone Mozarella (classic Mozarella, not the quick recipe) = multiplier of x3 to x3.5
- Roquefort, Gorgonzola and other blues, Feta/Bulgarian - multiplier of x4
- Soft or semi soft surface or smear ripened Camembert/Brie, Telaggio = multiplier of x5 to x6

Here’s another table of floc multipliers coupled with the size to cut curd:

2 - 2.5   :Swiss, Alpine, Grana, Montasio - Cutting to rice size
2.5 – 3   : Gruyere, Reggianito, Morlacco, Parrano, Reypenaer
3    : Caerphilly, Tomme, Parmesan, Wensleydale, Mozzarella, Gouda, Port Salut, Manchego, Beaufort, Ossau-Iraty, Munster, Oka, Kashkaval
3 - 3.5    : Cheddar, Hard British Scandinavian, Kashar, Mozzarella, Provolone, Butterkase, Dunlop, Morbier - Cutting to Pea size
3.5 - 4    : Monterey Jack, Lancashire, Butterkase, Havarti, Reblochon, Morbier
4    : Gouda, Mozzarella, Feta, Blue Cheese, Reblochon, Form D’Ambert, Bryndza, Garrotxa – cutting between pea to hazelnut size
5 - 6    : Brie, Camembert, Stilton, Crottin de Chavignol, Coulommier - Cutting to wallnut size or ladle

Some cheese is out of the ordinary: You will find the Gorgonzola recipes with as little as x2., Tellagio with x4 and some softer washed rind cheese like Port Salut can have as little as x3. Such differences are usually made when a recipe aims to obtain some of the needed acidification at later stages, such as in the press or during drainage. (or vice versa, a recipe may extend the multiplier and shorten or eliminate drainage/pressing to make up for it).
"

- Jeff

Offline fied

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 09:46:55 AM »
That last point is important, Jeff. I have to use supermarket milk and find that I need to use more rennet, or wait for a longer floc time. If it's the latter, then I cut time off later parts of the recipe if I don't want greater acidification. If, for example, I'm making a cheddar type, then I don't cheddar as long as the recipe suggests at the caking stage. It's trickier with bloomy cheeses like Camembert. With these, I sometimes wash the curds a little, though not as much as, e.g., for a Gouda, As you say, it's all alchemy and each batch differs.

I found that, after some time of making cheeses, too, I could judge the curds better by feel and sight. That's not easy for a beginner to acquire, though, so one of my 'must dos' with cheese-making, especially with recipes I've not tried before,  is being prepared to make mistakes, have the occasional cheese fail and learn from it.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 03:22:22 PM »
Welcome to the forum, scarin. Lots of informed experience here. You can use the search function and then if you can't find an answer...don't be afraid to ask a question.

I didn't see what type of cheese you were trying to make. Are you following a recipe? If you can offer more information about your techniques or procedure, the folks here are more than willing to help out. Thanks, Jeff. Dude!  8)

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scarin

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 05:52:22 PM »
Thanks all for the replies. As with everything else there is so much more to the process then you realize at first glance. Its all a learning experience. I will try the floc method next time. Do you simply float the plastic bowl or do you put something in it to weigh it down a bit? Also @Boofer I was making the Mozz from the recipe that I got from Fias Co Farms website.

JeffHamm

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 06:23:52 PM »
Hi scarin,

Just float the bowl, no need to weigh it down.  Also, if you read around the forum, I think you'll find a lot of people have had difficulties making Mozz out of store bought milk.  I think it can be done, but all those who have had the most consistent success have used raw milk.  So, don't get discouraged, and be prepared to try different brands of milk until you find one that works well for you.

- Jeff

MrsKK

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 02:53:04 PM »
You will probably also get better results if you add calcium chloride to the milk.  It will help the curd set up better and you will also get a higher yield.

If you try that along with the other suggestions you've been given and still don't get a good curd set, try a different brand of milk.  Here in Wisconsin, all the pasturized/homogenized milk is treated at 170 degrees F, which renders the milk useless for making anything other than vinegar coagulated or soft cheeses.  If you can't legally obtain raw milk, the next best thing is creamline milk that has been gently pasturized.  If you find it in the store, just write down the website or phone number and contact the producer to find out how they pasturize the milk.  The producers of creamline milk in my area pasturize at 145 degrees, which makes pretty good cheese.  I still add calcium chloride, though. because creamline milk is expensive and I want to get everything out of it that I can.

Also realize that, while mozzarella is fun to make and can be eaten fresh, it is also one of the toughest cheeses to get right, even for people with cheesemaking experience.  Don' give up!

Tobiasrer

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 04:00:27 PM »
Thats great news! If Mozza is one of the hardest then I am psyched for my future attempts! as I have had success 1 out of 3 attempts at mozza with store bought milk, and no calcium chloride!
I will second Karens thoughts that it is fun, although alot more fun when you are succesful lol.
Keep at it and try something new, best of luck to you.
My cheese making is on a break cuz my pregnant wife says she cant take the whole house smelling like cheese

margaretsmall

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 10:25:54 PM »
A cheese to you Jeff for a great explanation of flocc. etc. I'm kept a copy.

I've had an amusing experience this week - an acquaintance who is an experienced cheesemaker but not into the more technical details of the whole process, told me she had cracked mozz. without bothering about pH. Said she couldn't get her head around it, after all the Italians were making it before pH meters were invented, etc. So off we went, did the whole thing (the recipe she used seems to be the 200EHC one), so.... we got to the stretching spot. Put the curd into the hot water, massaged it around.... and around.... and around. And it never came together. Chook food. She was mortified, I was amused. I did point out to her later, after she'd recovered, that after all the Italians had been making this for generations, using the same milk, some conditions etc so would be very alert to the subtle changes in the curds which would signal the right time to start stretching. And I bet that once in a while they made chook food as well.
If I ever get the urge to make mozz. I'll buy a meter. 
Margaret

MrsKK

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 09:03:56 PM »
I've never used a ph meter and have had very few failures with mozz once I got it figured out...whether using creamline milk or raw milk from my own cow.

The trick is to use what David Fankhauser calls the "spin test".  Heat water to about 170 degrees F and submerge an inch cube of the curd into it for 20-30 seconds.  Remove from the water and try to stretch it.  If the curd has been warmed through (you may need to submerge it just a bit longer) and it stretches, then it is good to go.  If the curd breaks, even though warmed throughout, it will need some more time to acidify to stretch properly.

Offline DeejayDebi

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Re: Newbie failed first attempt
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 08:04:24 PM »
I am with Karen - I don't use a pH meter (although I have a really nice one) and I have never had a failed pasta filleta cheese. I use the window pane test. Get a small chunk of cheese, put it in a bowl of 170F degree water for a minute or so. I usually just nuke a small cerial bowl full of water for the test, but stretch the bulk in the whey.  If you can stretch it without it breaking (kind of like eatting a hot pizza) it's ready.



Kind of hard to do with one hand and get a picture