Author Topic: breakdown under the rind of lactics  (Read 1528 times)

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
breakdown under the rind of lactics
« on: February 17, 2012, 10:33:28 PM »
Hi.

I am making some surface ripened lactics in the style of pelardon etc.  I used to have problems getting sufficient draining but have now solved this problem. I rennet at pH  6.4 and drain at pH 4.6 so they are well drained disks before I salt them and put them in the drying room at 20oC and less than 60% humidity for 24hrs.  I then put them in a cold room at 4oC for a further 48hrs to dry them more.  In my climate (humid subtropical) unless I do this I just can't get them surface dry ready for the ageing room.

They develop a rind well but two weeks later they start to breakdown under the rind. 

Is this what I have to live with or can I change my make to eliminate breakdown under the rind?

I use PC ABL and Geo 15 on the rind with a smidge of KL and ARN.

Thanks.

NVD.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 10:11:42 AM »
Adjunct the culture with 50%+ TA and adjust the rennet schedule to rennet at 6.2 and drain at 4.8-4.9. Will help with texture issues and rapid proteolysis.

For faster drying, use a fan. Also, What is the aging temp? 4 C?
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 03:38:23 AM »
Two days at 4oC then mature at 12oC until covered in mould then wrap and back in the 4oC.

What is the TA doing?

NVD

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 11:24:23 AM »
TA is stabilizing physically, and also is less proteolytic. Combine with higher drain ph = less food for bloomies.

Lower that temp to ~8 C after bloom, will also help. 12 is a tad high, will grow too quickly
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 02:39:06 PM »
If I lower the room temp I will also be lowering it for my blues and other whites and tommes! (one very busy room!) I guess this will just slow things down for everything, but is it a problem for anyone of them?

Maybe I could try 10oC as a happy medium?

The idea of adjuncting with TA is interesting and seems counter-intuitive to me.  The whole point of a lactic is to develop acid, yet TA is going to be added to reduce the amount of acid produced.  The terminal pH in this case will be a lot higher.  Is this still a lactic cheese?

NVD.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 03:19:42 PM by NimbinValleyDairy »

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 03:14:32 PM »
You can try, see how it comes out. Check different parts of your cave. Most likely, it is not perfectly balanced and some areas will be colder than others.

Colder is better, generally. 8-9C will give you better flavor development for most cheeses, but the tradeoff is slower maturation and slower time to market, so you're holding more inventory.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 03:20:49 PM »
The idea of adjuncting with TA is interesting and seems counter-intuitive to me.  The whole point of a lactic is to develop acid, yet TA is going to be added to reduce the amount of acid produced.  The terminal pH in this case will be a lot higher.  Is this still a lactic cheese?

NVD.

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 03:28:04 PM »
The definition of lactic technology to me ultimately resides not in terminal pH, but in the degree of casein degradation before adding rennet, and also the amount of rennet added. It has to do with the core reason that casein micelles aggregate.

In full rennet, there is only a small amount of acid present before rennet add... usually no more than .18 TA (6.5 or higher). In semi-rennet/semi-lactic, there's a wide range, but usually rennet is added around 6.0-6.2, when there's a good deal of casein degradation. And the coagulation is a mixed type... part lactic, part rennet. Rennet is added in the right amount to ensure the initial set occurs at 5.2-5.4.

And then in full lactic, it's a straight shot, acid and culture texturization via exo polysaccharides makes for the set. Here, pH is key, because micellar aggregation depends very heavily on the acid developed.

TA by itself won't really reduce the amount of acid... it modifies the curve. You can still get to 4.6 with TA. You time the make, though, to drain higher than 4.8, say, 5.0, and then also use a semi-lactic approach.

It will be different, that's why you should do a blend meso/TA to increase flavor. End result is a more stable cheese, ages slower.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 03:36:58 PM by linuxboy »
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 03:37:07 PM »
OK.

The rate of acidification is affected.  Not the final amount of acid produced.  The acidification curve is changed.

Lots to learn!

Thanks.

NVD.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 03:41:50 PM »
Its interesting because when I first started cheesemaking everyone told me that lactics were the easiest cheeses to make - throw in the culture, a little rennet and next day you have a lactic.  Piece of cake.

In reality lactics are probably one of the more complex cheeses to make and most difficult to get right.

onward and upwards!

NVD


Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 03:48:37 PM »
They are a piece of cake... In summer, with perfect fresh milk, when the PF is just right, and when you use a bulk commercial culture with good texturizing properties (like undefined species DL blend), and drain in small quantities, and age out in the lower humidity of summer, and with the better natural flora balance that favors PC and geo growth... piece of cake.

What they don't tell you is that many people have not gone through the hell of figuring out seasonal production, and how you need 4-6 recipes to make the same lactic cheese, and how much you have to be attentive to notice subtle changes both during the make and during affinage. Learning experience for sure.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 05:12:54 PM »
I have actually shifted back from an MM or FD starter to an MA series since I prefer the flavour.  The little Pelardon style cheese that I make is one cheese that I think benefits from NOT having a diacetyl flavour note.  With all of the moulds I use, (KL,LB,PLA, PCABL) the diacetyl just seemed to 'muddy' the flavour too much. This is a goat milk cheese by the way.

NVD

Offline linuxboy

  • Old Cheese
  • *****
  • Location: Ukiah, CA
  • Posts: 3,986
  • Cheeses: 199
  • www.wacheese.com
    • Washington Cheese Guild
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 05:16:23 PM »
I agree with you on the clean notes. I like good citrus, acidic tones with the goat milk. MA also has decent texturizing properties, produces a solid set in a lactic.
Taking an extended leave (until 2015) from the forums to build out my farm and dairy. Please e-mail or PM if you need anything.

Offline NimbinValley

  • Mature Cheese
  • ****
  • Location: Australia
  • Posts: 290
  • Cheeses: 7
  • Default personal text
Re: breakdown under the rind of lactics
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 03:13:40 PM »
Hi.

Im in the middle of my make using 50% MA and 50% TA.

I have just realised that instead of using 5dcu's of each per 100 litres I have put in 5dcu's of each per 20 litres - 5 times the amount of culture I would normally use.

I am going to get super fast acidification so it will be interesting to see how it comes out...

NVD.