Distinct bitterness in my cheeses

[MacGruff]

I have had the opportunity to taste two of my cheese this weekend - a Havarti and a Gouda - that I made about two, two and a half months ago and they both suffer from the same problem. There is a very distinct and dramatic bitter flavor to them.

As a recap, I have documented my makes on this board before. The two cheeses I am speaking of here are my second Havarti and a Gouda I made. Both were made in December 2011. While I have tasted small portions of the Havarti before, today was my first attempt at the Gouda. For the Gouda, I had vacuum sealed it back in early January as a block and this was my first time breaking it open. I first weighed it, and the wheel was 1 lb 12 Ounces (down from 2 lbs when sealed). Over these two months, I flipped the cheese weekly. No signs of any problems were apparent to me over this time period.

After taking the wheel out of the bag, I noted that it was feeling wet, so I dried it with some paper towels and left it on the counter to get to room temperature for a few hours. Then, came the long awaited tasting.

The wheel cut nicely and it smelled like I expect a cheese to smell and there was no external indications of any problems. After cutting it into four wedges, I sliced a bit off to taste. The cheese was more crumbly than a commercial Gouda. It was completely white as well. The paste felt a little like paste and there were some small gaps and holes in it.

So far so good. So, I tasted the little sliver. The initial attack was good, but within a second or two a very strong bitter flavor dominated the taste buds. This was very unpleasant and certainly not what I was looking for. After another 20 seconds or so, the bitterness dissolved and the after taste was of a Gouda.

OK - I am clearly moving the in the right direction here, but this is the same problem that I had with the Havarti I made about the same time. The milk I had used was from the supermarket, so it was homogenized and pasteurized. However, two different milks and two different methods (Havarti and Gouda) yielded a similar problem which makes me want to look at what I am doing (i.e. a technique issue) rather than the milk I am using.

What could I be doing wrong that is causing this bitterness?

[adalton]

I have made Goudas with store bought milk and I had the same results.  I was told that you need to wash the heck out of the curd.  I don't have as much experience as a lot of you, but I have found little success with P/H milk that was going to be turned into a Gouda or a Colby.  I can't speak about the Havarti.  My cheeses always come out bitter with this type of milk and sometimes they are crumbly too.

Andy

[JeffHamm]

Hi MacGruff,

I've had some cheese develop some bitterness around that time period.  From what I understand, there are a few main suspects with respect to developing bitterness:

1) too much rennet
2) too much starter culture
3) geo getting out of control
4) milk issues

If your cheese has developed a white dusty covering, it's probably geo.  If the rind is getting quite wrinkled, it may be getting out of control and causing bitterness.  If so, the bitterness will probably be more pronounced near the rind.  Brush the geo off, and when you eat it, remove the rind. 

Too much rennet and starter will, as I understand it, eventually right itself after sufficient aging.  But that means re-sealing and aging out for six months or more. 

I've had caerphilly develop bitterness around the 3 month mark (and I think some other makes as well), and darius also was having this problem with her caerphilly.  With mine, I noticed that a few days after being cut the bitterness would reduce, and mostly go away.  You may find the same thing, so I would suggest you leave your cheese in your cave a few more days in a ripening box and see if it improves (don't re-vac pac it, let it air out).  Sounds like the other aspects of the taste are good though.

I believe darius narrowed her issues down to the brand of milk and has switched to a new brand and not having this problem.  It may be that you need to switch as well.

I'm sure there are other possibilities as well and others will provide additional suggestions.

- Jeff

[george13]

Since on the topic, I hope you don't mind a related question.  I too have biterness in a Fontina type cheese that is 2 months today, I also a very, very slight sourness as well.  Do you think these two defects will fade as it ages longer.  And lastly, once I make a cut into a wheel of cheese, will the rest continue to age.  Thanks

[JeffHamm]

Hi George13,

I think it will continue to age after it's cut, but I'm not familiar with fontina.  Young cheeses will often have a sourness to them, like sour cream type flavours, and this should fade.  The bitterness may as well, depending upon what's caused it.  I would suggest try aging it for another two weeks or a month and try again.

- Jeff

[margaretsmall]

Hi MacGruff,
I've had a problem with a cheese which seemed to be dry exuding moisture after bagging, and I wonder if this might be an issue. I seem to remember someone posting that whey in the bag will cause off tastes and that you need to dry cheeses that are to be bagged rather longer than seems necessary. I'm not commenting from experience as I'm yet to taste the cheese in question (which I took out of the bag, dried off again and rebagged). It was disconcerting to see the vacuum process squeeze moisture out a cheese which I thought was properly dry.
Maybe you have a supersensitive palate and a career as a cheese judge is looming?
Margaret

[Tomer1]

"career as a cheese judge is looming"
But if one has unordinary tasting abillities then his judging is nor releavant for us normal people, 
Im just saying this because of a recent study I read about supertasters and proffesional wine judges being irelevant to accual consumers.

[MacGruff]

Hi Tomer and Margaret -

I also read the same article about the "super tasters" I assure you, I am NOT one of them!!!   

JeffHamm - I do not thinks it's geo as this cheese was vacuum packaged before a good rind developed. I decided to vacuum seal it when I found that my cave had a severe case of blue, black, and orange mold and I was wiping new mold off every three days and was not seeing any good rind develop. and... since Gouda is typically waxed and therefore does not have a rind, I decided to vacuum seal. Since that time, I've been watching it carefully to see if any mold develops in the bag - No; I was also watching to see if it starts looking like something is leaking - again, no.

The tasting was very disappointing since I was waiting so patiently...     right....   

Anyway, the four wedges are back in vacuum seals and I will let them go for another month or so and then taste them again with the Colby that I have yet to crack. I am thinking of trying another Gouda starting next weekend....  that's why I am asking for technique issues I might avoid.

Thanks to JeffHamm, I have his floc method description, now I just need to find the proper multipliers for these cheeses (Havarti, Gouda, Colby, etc.).

Thanks all!!!

[NimbinValley]

MacGruff do you use any of the TA series cultures in your mix?  TA is a thermophile (Streptococcus thermophilus) that breaks down the bitter peptides that are produced from proteolysis as the cheese matures.  If your bitterness is not a result of too much rennet etc this might help solve the problem.

NVD

[MrsKK]

It sounds as though you tasted it almost directly after cutting it.  Cheese really does need some time to air out and allow trapped gases to dissipate before tasting.

By any chance, are you using vegetable rennet?  That can cause bitterness in aged cheeses, too.  Also, I recently was reading about the use of calcium chloride in pickle making, with the warning that using too much CaCl can cause bitterness in pickles.  It would seem to follow that it could do the same with cheese.

[Boofer]

Also, I recently was reading about the use of calcium chloride in pickle making, with the warning that using too much CaCl can cause bitterness in pickles.  It would seem to follow that it could do the same with cheese.

Interesting point, Karen. This hasn't been brought out much on the forum.

I wonder if there is a guideline for how much CACL to use for a given volume of milk.

Seems like a lowered quantity of salt added to the cheese might also lead to bitterness as well as other flavor and texture issues.

-Boofer-

[Hande]

Good point, every raw milk cheese what I made taste just good.
Those p/h milk cheese get almost every time some bitterness after some time.
But hey, maybe that's all my imagination 

Hande

[anutcanfly]

For what it's worth, the only cheeses in my cave with a bitterness defect are ones made with P/H store milk.  I since I started using raw goat and raw cow I have had no further problems.  The goat cheddar I cracked last night was wet in it's vacuum sealed bag and yet was perfect.  The same story with many others as well, since the vacuum sealing does seem to draw out moisture on cheeses you though were dry.  The only time the vacuumed sealed cheeses have issues is when it's both wet and the seal is lost, then they quickly develop sweat sock type odors.

[anarch]

Interesting, because I have a few cheeses right now that were made with raw cow milk and definitely have a bitter/sour aftertaste.   So P/H would not be my issue. 

I'm guessing with me, that too much rennet, or aging issues (got wet under wax, a little secondary mold) are my problem.

[linuxboy]

I wonder if there is a guideline for how much CACL to use for a given volume of milk.

Boof, it's in the big CaCl2 mixing thread. I listed guidelines. Generally .01% anhydrous, no more than .02% by law. Generally, too much cacl2 doesn't create bitter defects, but it does cause texture defects.