Author Topic: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine  (Read 3643 times)

Offline H-K-J

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HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« on: April 26, 2012, 04:41:50 PM »
this really sucks my Swiss I made yesterday just fell apart  :'(
it is now in three pieces can I break it up and repress or am I done?
maybe finish brine and vaccum pack whats left? right now I am very depressed
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linuxboy

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »
Did you press it under whey and let the curds settle so they fuse? What was pH at curd fuse?

Offline H-K-J

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »
yes, pressed under whey 120deg. 20 min. flipped redressed pressed with more weight 20 min. whey slightly cooler,
redressed, pressed at 2lbs, psi overnight looked good when I put it in the brine. don't have a PH monitor :-[
« Last Edit: April 26, 2012, 05:07:02 PM by H-K-J »
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Offline Boofer

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2012, 08:14:25 PM »
yes, pressed under whey 120deg. 20 min. flipped redressed pressed with more weight 20 min. whey slightly cooler,
redressed, pressed at 2lbs, psi overnight looked good when I put it in the brine. don't have a PH monitor :-[
Why are you double-posting your Emmenthal make?

Seems like your whey temp is too high.
What is "more weight"?
What is "2lbs, psi"?

Confused....  ???

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Cloversmilker

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2012, 11:17:35 PM »
Can you post a picture?  I haven't made swiss (well, intentionally, but that's another story...), but it seems to me that you may be able to air dry and then vacumn pack to age.  The falling apart seems quite unusual though.  The only time that has happened to me is when I tried the port cheddar from 200 Easy.  The port really screwed up the pH on the surface of the curds and they did NOT fuse.  Now there's a recipe to avoid.....

Alpkäserei

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2012, 04:57:26 PM »
I would say you did not press it enough, from the sound of things.

Proper cheesemaking in der Schweiz requires that cheese be pressed for 24 hours at as much weight as you an give it, and during this time turned over no less than 6 times to get an even, consistent form with no flaws.

Also we leave our curd in the whey at 50 deg. C (about 125 degrees F or so) for a very precise amount of time. This time dries the curd, and if left for too long the curd gets too rubbery and will not press right. So we heat it up slowly over a period of 25 to 40 mintues from 32 degrees up to 50 degrees (90 to 125) strring very rapidly so that the curd does not clump, and then at the proper temperature hold it under constant stirring for 5 to 15 minutes -really to the time when the curd is right and then remove it. After this, we want it to cool down fast so that it will stick good to itself. The less it is cooked, the better it will stick to itself. The more it is cooked, the harder and drier the final cheese will be. It takes a great weight to press cheese that is cooked too long.

The way I learned it is that you first drain the curd -at room temperature- for an hour or so to let excess whey run off. Then -again at room temperature- you knead the curd into the forms, which are lined with a cloth, and press the cheese. We make multiple wheels from a single batch, and they are stacked one on top of another. If you do this and have more than 2, it is necessary to also rotate their position in the stack.

The cheese stays in the first pressing for two hours or so, then all is taken out, turned over (if pressing in the cloth as per traditional methods, you have to take it out of the cloth and turn it over so you get rid of the wrinkles)

You take it out and rotate it at least 6 times, spread out over the course of the day. And all pressing is done at room temperature, nothing under whey.
When pressed for a day at a high weight, your cheese will not come apart. But beware, too much weight and your cheese will not form eyes. But that is ok, because in the mountains where I learn, eyes are considered a flaw any way  ;)

We also use a special form for our cheese known as a Järb. The Järb is a piece of wood bent into a circle with an adjuster so you can change the dia. of the cheese wheel.
The methods I describe work very well with the Järb, but maybe not so much with a plastic bucket (my not-so-endearing term for the plastic cheese forms)
When using the Järb, you have to adjust it to just the right size so that your curd slightly overfills it (contained in the cheesecloth) and then it is pressed with a board on top that if done right will eventually come down to just above the top of the Järb


linuxboy

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2012, 03:10:24 PM »
I love your contributions and sharing. Thanks so much.

Curious about a comment here:

Quote
But beware, too much weight and your cheese will not form eyes.
Has this been your experience? How much weight is too much? I'm a little baffled because to my understanding the only relationship between weight of press and eyes is that one needs a high weight to fuse the curds together initially in order to limit the nucleation sites, where the nucleation sites provide a starting point for an eye to form as propionic bacteria produce CO2.

Alpkäserei

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2012, 04:42:13 PM »
We are talking tremndous weights here. Alpine cheesemakers in the Canton of Bern use what they call a Schwerpressen, which means heavy press. It is a gigantic wooden lever, often with a large stone placed on top. These can weigh as much as a ton or even more.

In the Emmental, cheesemakers used to use similar pressing techniques because if the curd is pressed hard enough, the gas cannot form eyes -I don't know the science, but that is what they say. They used to consider the eyes a defect, but l;ater changed their mind and latered their pressing in order to instead make eyes of exact sizes -the Swiss must be precise you see.

If you can read German, or know someone who can, this is a great resource on Swiss cheeses:
http://books.google.ch/books?id=sSZDAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

linuxboy

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2012, 04:49:57 PM »
I can definitely understand the press schedule and the weight as important... wrong temperature or wrong calcium level would make a big difference in nucleation site distribution.

Do you think maybe they meant that a cheese can be too perfect for eye formation? That if everything is carried out with extreme precision, that too much weight would create such a fine knit as to cause zero nucleation potential? It's a theoretical possibility, but I am really struggling to understand it here. In practical reality, even 20 tons would not make this happen. It would make the eyes bigger, possibly, as in leerdamer.

Very often, we find that traditional practices disprove scientific theory. And other times, we find the opposite. I wonder what is the situation here. I love learning from centuries of experience and tradition, but have no way to reconcile this tidbit with the rest of what I know.

I read enough German to understand cheesetalk. Thanks for the wonderful link!

[edit]: Wow, just started going through it. I have a few other similar obscure cheesemaking bits in German in my collection. Really wonderful to learn from historical traditions.

Offline Boofer

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2012, 05:27:31 PM »
If you can read German, or know someone who can, this is a great resource on Swiss cheeses:
Thank you for that link.

This is a bit of a challenge for my 40-years-past Deutsch instruction, but a treasure none-the-less.

I need all the help I can get.  ;)

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Alpkäserei

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2012, 05:58:11 PM »
It is also possible that they aged it differently, and that was really responsible for the lack of eyes, and they just assumed it was the pressing that caused it.

The alpine cheeses in Canton Bern are all aged initially in an unconditioned room. But we must also note that at 6500 feet elevation and these latitudes, the day time temperature is usually in the mid 50's and down in the 40's at night. Very cool, and as I understand it not right for eye formation.

and i should correct, it is 'Schwarpressen' not 'Shwerpressen'

linuxboy

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2012, 06:19:55 PM »
That to me is a far more likely cause. Maybe it's an issue of multiple factors, and people not attributing them correctly because all the practices were lumped together?

Alpkäserei

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Re: HELP!!! swiss fell apart turning it in the brine
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2012, 07:09:46 PM »
There is also the case of conflicting traditions. In Switzerland there are over 450 different (known) varieties of traditional cheese made, this in a very small country.
So you could very well have that some Emmentalers thought that their cheese should have no holes, and their methods made a solid cheese while others thought it ought to have holes, and so made it as such.