Whole Cow's Milk or Skim Cow's Milk & Cream?

[Cartierusm]

Well there ya have it. The only reason they say to do that on the schmidling site is to get a better set, but I'm sticking with regular milks.

[wharris]

This is a great thread as I think this is important to understand.

I think there is a distinction to be made between "the skim milk" or "skimmed milk" and "Skim milk"
I think when referred to generally, the skim milk would be just that, whole milk who's cream has been skimmed off.

"Skim Milk" however, seems to be an FDA approved milk category that defines its maximum fat content to be no greater than .5%.  Typically Skim milk is not milk whose cream has been skimmed, but the result of milk being mechanically separated by a centrifugal milk separator.

Does this make sense?  I am just trying to get this straight in my own head as I head into Parmesan cheesemaking.

[Cartierusm]

Wayne, I just use the standard 2.5%, with my last batch it came out better than using just 2%. My GOOD books say 2.5% for the last 15 gal parm I used 5 gal whole and 10 gal 2%. I love the looks I get in the grocery store when I wheel around 15 gal milk.

[Wateetons]

Shouldn't the skim milk/no-fat/very low fat milk with added cream combination get rid of the need for calcium chloride?

[Cartierusm]

No, the reason for CaCl2 is to reintroduce calcium back in that got destroyed by Pastuerization. Coincidently, if you're using UHT cream you'll definately need CaCl2 as almost everything in that cream got destroyed.

[Wateetons]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is not both the pasteurization AND the homogenization process responsible for the low quality curd-set in storebought milk?

If so: one should be able to correct one of these two problems (homogenization) by mixing cream with no-fat milk.

I do in fact get a much better curd-set when using the low-fat milk/cream combination than storebought whole milk, which does support this hypothesis.

[wharris]

I am only aware of heat treated milk needing CaCl2 in order to aid coagulation.

I've not heard of homogenization being a reason.

[Wateetons]

http://www.leeners.com/cheesehow2.html#store

Using Store Bought Milk
  Store bought milk is homogenized, which means that the cream particles (butter fat) have been mechanically broken up into microscopic particles. This is done to prevent the cream from separating from the milk. Homogenizing milk also alters the protein. Unless the cheese maker compensates for this the milk will not make a satisfactory curd for hard cheese. When making cottage cheese or any hard cheeses with store bought milk you must prepare a special mixture. The basic recipe is 1 part heavy cream to 7 parts skim milk. All of the recipes given here are formulated to use store bought milk and the instructions for preparing this mixture are given in each recipe when necessary.

   Calcium Chloride (optional)
   Another step used to compensate for the processing of store bought milk is the addition of calcium chloride prior to adding rennet to the cheese mixture. The addition of calcium chloride will help restore the altered milk protein and aid in the development of a quality curd. Specific instructions for using calcium chloride are given with each recipe.

This does seem to be confirmed by research:
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/7/519
http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/38/1/80

[wharris]

Interesting. 
I have much to read. Thanks for the link.


I did come across this in your pdf file:
"In these experiments calcium chloride did not restore the curd tension values
lost by homogenizing even when added at more than double the rate permitted
by federal standards for eheesemaking." in the PDF. 

So,  I'm not sure what the deal it..

I see your point that Homogenization reduces the strength of a curd.  But it kinda looks like rennet is not the answer there.  It looks like adding cream or concentrating the milk solids is the answer in the case of homogenization.

I'm still reading.  (and pretending to actually work......)

[Cartierusm]

What it comes down to is there is lots of disinformation out there. All I've read in books says that during the pastuerization process the calcium ges destroyed so you use CaCl2 to restore it to aid in coagulation, but these same books say that to use it with goats milk as it's naturally homogenized out of the udder....so who knows.

I'm not going to go the Skim/cream route as I'm back where I started price wise, probably more. I went to costco last week to pick up half and half for my stilton which is used in conjunction with whole milk and they don't even sell cream. So buying cream in a store in the quantities I use would get real expensive.

It doesn't matter to me as i'm using past/homogenzied so I have to use CaCl2 no matter what. I would like to know the REAL answer someday.

P.S. Welcome to the forum. You're new here and don't know me yet, which means some beeman types might take this post as defensive and argumentative..it's not. I just didn't sleep at all last night and my wits are not about me to make sure this post didn't come out sounding rude, so I appologive in advance.

P.P.S. In those articles it mentions Curd Tension, is that when the curds get scared because I'm coming up behind them with a knife?

[wharris]

Beeman-type.    That made me laugh. 
However, the reference may not be widely-understood.

Beeman was a former forum member who was a bit of an internet troll.  He was opinionated to a fault, and liked to argue and generally cause problems. Essentially, his deal was if you disagreed with him, or had a different take on a subject, it was time to start an over-the-top flame ware.

People do not take themselves too seriously here, you will not find any hardcore experts in this forum, but most try really really hard.

The great thing about this forum is that most folks here are genuinely looking for advice or trying to otherwise advance their understanding of cheesemaking.  They are also very open to providing assistance to those trying something new. 

So, taking Carters response in the proper light,  we do not seek to disregard an opinion here, but rather to refine our own.

[stuartjc]

People do not take themselves too seriously here, you will not find any hardcore experts in this forum, but most try really really hard.

The great thing about this forum is that most folks here are genuinely looking for advice or trying to otherwise advance their understanding of cheesemaking.  They are also very open to providing assistance to those trying something new. 

This has been exactly my experience since blundering in here - gosh, less than 2 weeks ago! I have never before found such a friendly and helpful forum 

[DeejayDebi]

I could be wrong but I do believe the skimmed milk in the recipes is raw milk with the cream poured off. It probably still has more fat than store bought whole milk but I will have to send some emails and see what I can find out for sure.

[CBBaron]

see under "dry and cream" here: http://schmidling.com/milk.htm

I got the skim milk because it's cheaper!

Yes but Non-fat dry milk is not the same as skim milk. The process is quite different.

Also Vitamin-D milk is also called whole milk. In nearly all cases, fresh milk has Vitamin A and D added to it as part of the process. Some is to replace the vitamins destroyed in the processing, however it is also added for the same reason as iodine is added to salt, to ensure that Americans get a sufficient supply of those vitamins by including them in something nearly everyone eats.


This forum has been a great source of information and it causes me to think an ask questions about things that I took for granted. Thanks

<edit> reading the linked article it seems that CaCl speeds up the coagulation of the milk but not the strength of the curds. However they were able to increase the curd strength by adding non-fat dry milk to increase the concentration of the milk.

Interesting... That should also increase the yield per gallon.
Lots to think about.....


Craig

[thebelgianpanda]

The loaves of cheese I have made from store bought skim milk and store bought 1% milk have, after proper aging, been some of my all time favorites.  But if they aren't aged at ~50F for a couple months, they are nasty.  I also have loaves made from raw that I personally have skimmed.  They are still aging, but look and smell great.

The only kind of milk I have had problems with is the local dairies Whole milk.  Won't ever use it again.