Author Topic: Rennet - Types Discussion  (Read 1821 times)

Offline george13

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Rennet - Types Discussion
« on: May 12, 2012, 08:06:56 AM »
Is microbial rennet and vegetable rennet the same?  Are these items genetically modified in order to be produced?  Could someone advise on the purest non-animal alternative to rennet available, and possibly identify a supplier.  Also, prefer non-GMO as well.  Bit confussing out there.
Thanks


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Offline Little Creek Cheese

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 08:03:32 AM »
we found the microbial rennet, particularly in white rinded cheese, tended to give a "soap" taste, it is cheaper , but for the cost difference in taste , we much prefer vegetarian rennet, we use CHYMAX PLUS ,

Offline Little Creek Cheese

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 08:10:02 AM »
we found the microbial rennet, particularly in white rinded cheese, tended to give a "soap" taste, it is cheaper , but for the cost difference in taste , we much prefer vegetarian rennet, we use CHYMAX PLUS , I don't know about suppliers out of Australia, Pretty much everything we have in Australia is non-GMO,
chymax is a thistle, it is a natural coagulent, and the microbial is as well

sorry for the double post, I hit the wrong button previously

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2012, 08:28:25 AM »
Quote
chymax is a thistle, it is a natural coagulent,
Chymax is produced by fermenting GMO aspergillus, it's FPC, fermentation produced chymosin.
Quote
and the microbial is as well
Not sure what you mean by microbial, which manufacturer specifically, but this is usually aspartic protease from m miehei or c parastitica.
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Offline george13

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 10:54:40 AM »
So is there a vegeterian non-GMO based rennet? 


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Offline linuxboy

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 11:09:21 AM »
I have philosophical qualms with the ethics of eating cheese made with rennet other than from the kids (who do you think happens to all those bucklings and calves that dairies can't keep?), so I advocate animal rennet for artisan cheese from a sustainability perspective. But if you want true vegetarian coagulant, a few options exist:
- Aspartic proteases from mold, such as mucor. This is a less-specific protease that will coagulate milk, and tends to cause off flavors and lower yield. But it's possible to make it work. A problem with this for vegetarians is that to ferment the mold/yeasts/whatever, often meat-based nutrients are added... so if you're approaching it from an ethical perspective, not sure how meritorious it is.
- New products from plant enzymes that are true vegetarian. Only one company I know of that does this, and there are no distributors. They might sell directly... they're a very small player in the market. Allegedly, proteolytic properties are on par with FPC.
- DIY coagulant from cardoon, fig, or similar
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Offline george13

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 02:46:23 PM »
Thanks for the information, personaly I only use veal rennet in all my cheeses, however, when asked about it, by someone who eats my cheese, I would like to have backup information so as to support a sound argument along the same lines which you have outlined.  In my view if it's not made with rennet it is not cheese.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2012, 03:27:15 PM »
I think everything has a place. There's only enough commercial rennet to supply about 1/3 of the current world production of cheese, and that's optimistically. But compared to the bulk market, the artisan market is small. The reality of it is here's what happens:

- Smaller producers most often have their own animals.
- Producers do not keep male kids and good breeders will cull does with poor conformation. And even the most humane people generally shrug the killing of young males as something necessary to the making of cheese.
- Producers who are smaller and in specialty goat and sheep markets tend to send kids to the slaughterhouse, which wastes the abomassa because there's not much of a market (this is not true in many parts of Europe).
- Producers who are larger or who have an established veal processor n the area (here in WA state, we have one for the entire state who does most of the veal processing) will send their calves to a slaughterhouse that retains the vells and ships them to one of the major 4-5 rennet makers in the world.
- On average, it takes the rennet of two kids to process the milk of one mom. And on average cows give birth very close to two kids, completing the circle.

So with that in mind, if in the artisan scene people put in the extra effort to be full circle with their operations (not faulting those who do not and not saying they do not care. I slaughter my male kids, too), animal rennet would be the most sustainable choice for all milks. As it stands, right now it is not far off from being the most sustainable. As for fermentation produced chymosin... mixed thoughts. Engineering bacteria and yeasts to be factories I don't think is completely wrong. We do it all the time naturally by strain selection... fine line there when we "help" the process along. And the product, FPC, is so purified that it's not like there are residues. And to meet current cheese demand, it has to be produced due to the volume that modern cow breeds crank out. if cow breeds produced like they did 100 years ago, animal rennet production would be the best choice, would all balance out.

/soapbox
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Online ArnaudForestier

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 03:42:10 PM »
Reading Kosikowski, specifically his discussion of Beaufort; "only the finest cheeses" get the dessicated vells minced into fresh rennet - the native bacilli apparently lending a depth of flavor not available from more strenuously processed rennet.  That's what I picked up anyway. 

Anyone have any experience with this?  Pav, I know you've made your own rennet - do you find a qualitative difference between your own vell-made rennet, and bought rennet?

Finally, he does give a recipe for the rennet preparation, but then suggests 0.2% of the rennet solution in the vat batch.  I presume that's by volume?
- Paul

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 03:47:09 PM »
I sterile filter mine, but even then there's a flavor and coagulation difference, esp for lactics. I haven't measured ratios, but I suspect mine is 10-15% pepsin. .2% is decent by volume, but it depends on strength. I do a small test batch to test flocculation and then use that as baseline. Sometimes, I go through the effort of measuring IMCU, but that's overkill.
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Online ArnaudForestier

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 04:01:34 PM »
The difference - is it along the lines Kosikowski talks about, an above-sensory threshold quality of depth, or complexity? 

And do you macerate it in dealbuminated whey, as he provides in his recipe, or in another medium?  He has this done freshly, as a daily process...I was thinking, how the heck could you know the strength, without some sort of trial balloon, like you mention?  I know you're busy, but sometime, personally - I'd love a tutorial here, on how to do it.

Is your pepsin ratio pretty classic (can't recall the chymosin/pepsin numbers somewhere in my catching-up reading)? 

Finally, I presume you use your own kids - is there a trade, to your knowledge, in dried vells (available to the very small producer)?
- Paul

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 04:28:20 PM »
I find aroma to be better, and yield higher in lactics. The set is better, drainage better, etc. Taste is about the same. Complexity... eh about the same.

Depends on the process re whey. If I am doing super traditional, I will use whey and will let the LAB ferment everything for 5 days. If I am doing bulk for the season, I use HCl and adjust, then after the zymogen depletion, I rough filter and sterile filter.

I posted a brief rundown in an answer to eric here. username eric1 iirc. Look up traditional rennet or zymogen on the forum, you'll find it.

kind of classic pepsin ratio. I keep kids longer so I have more to eat, so there's more pepsin. Yes, my kids.  You can buy dry vells from walcoren (I think) and hundsbichler (for sure). WI must have a veal abbatoir, call around. I could get frozen vells from my local abbatoir in WA, they did about 10,000 calves/year.
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Online ArnaudForestier

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 05:48:45 PM »
Thanks, Pav, I'll check it out.  I did see hundsbichler has it, but as you say, it should be easy enough to find locally. 
- Paul

Offline linuxboy

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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 06:32:37 PM »
Follow the chain until someone knows. Ask butchers who is the veal processor or good sized dairies/auction houses where they send the kids. You might only have one in the whole region. They won't be dry, they'll be frozen and packed in a 20-ish lb block. That's the only commoditized version in the US. if you want dry, you have to do it yourself.
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Re: Rennet - Types Discussion
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 07:42:32 AM »
Thanks, Pav, looking into it.  Might be easiest in the meantime to try hundsbichler.
- Paul