Author Topic: sudden drop in PH  (Read 3421 times)

Offline linuxboy

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2012, 07:45:32 PM »
wash can work, depends on the milk and make. But overall, if salting and hitting your pH markers for rennet, drain, and mill/salt are not doing it, AND if a cold crash isn't doing it either, then you have some oddity in the bacterial payload. Perhaps your native LAB are having a synergistic reaction with your starter to rapidly accelerate pH curve or do a too-low terminal. IMHO, if nothing else is working at all, including pasteurization, then call it a quirk of the milk and flora and live with it.  a 4.9 finish for cheddar is not the end of the world if you hit the drain and salt pH.

edit: I would try different starters before doing that, though.
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2012, 08:09:23 PM »
I will change the starter this weekend as well, I have been using Ma11,  I have on hand Ma16, FD and Meso 2. I have not tried pasteurization yet. I will split the 8 gals into two makes and alter each make and see what happens.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2012, 08:12:26 PM »
Suggest until you dial this in to exactly how you want it, to use smaller batch sizes (1 gal, maybe 2) altering one variable at a time until it all flows, and take careful notes. It's part of product R&D, sometimes stuff just doesn't work as expected and needs tweaks. Of course if your molds and other equipment don't allow for it, moot point.
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2012, 08:19:03 PM »
All my hoops for hard cheese are 8 1/4 inch round by 7 inches in height and my press is set to these molds. I have been making cheddar for several years and made at least a hundred wheels. I have never experienced this before, salt always slowed or stopped the PH drop. I may also try 1 gal raw and 3 gal store brand milk. What do you think the outcome would be if I did not use any starter, would the natural milk have enough to do the job?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2012, 08:28:02 PM by Devon »
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2012, 08:20:50 PM »
it might. If you heated and left the milk at 80-85F, how long does it take to thicken up to a pH of 4.8?
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2012, 08:24:11 PM »
4.8 is the end result, I remove from the press at 5.3, put in frig and usually overnight hits 4.8
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Offline FRANCOIS

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2012, 08:27:45 PM »
Really, a fridge at or below 40F?  That's amazing, you should isolate your own starter from that and use it for camembert.  I'd buy it.

Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2012, 08:29:14 PM »
I put them in my cave at 48 - 53 degrees, I have not been putting them in the main frig. Should I be putting them in a frig with a lower temp? It is funny the stopping point is always 4.8 to 4.9
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2012, 08:31:17 PM »
If you cold crash it to 40 in a reasonable size wheel and it still drops .5? After salting? I've only ever seen that in some strains of acidophilus and bulgaricus, never in a meso. If your pH readings are correct, that is some crazy synergistic effect or strain you have there.

Try the milk alone at that temp and time how long it takes to get to 4.8 Better yet, see if you can take some readings throughout and plot a pH curve.
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2012, 08:34:03 PM »
Remember when I posted about two different reading on two different meters? You told me one of the probes must be bad and I received a new probe and it corrected the problem. This is the reason I ended up with two meters. I run cal on both meters before each make. I will split the make this weekend, I will use Ma 16 in one and will not use any starter in the other. Worst thing that can happen is the same result.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2012, 08:39:42 PM »
Okay, but if you want, heat up some milk (a pint), to 80-85F, and put it in a pot of 90F water, and see how long it takes to coagulate. This will roughly mirror your make. You can take pH readings based on time directly in milk, and it will tell you ahead of time how the make will behave in terms of pH. Basically, am saying that there's no need to do a full make if you just want to determine pH behavior or your native flora.
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 08:48:55 PM »
Good point, I will stop by and pick up a gal on my way home from work. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks for all the input a lot to absorb but I am determined to figure this out.
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 04:07:25 PM »
Raw milk PH data
Temp   Time      PH
88.1   4:30 pm   6.75
89.8   5:00 pm   6.74
89.4   5:30 pm   6.73
91.2   6:00 pm   6.72
91.0   6:30 pm   6.70
91.2   7:00 pm   6.69
91.2   7:30 pm   6.68
90.4   8:00 pm   6.67
90.02   9:00 pm   6.65 Milk was thickening
89.5   9:45 pm   6.60
89.2   10:15 pm   6.26
89.0   11:00 pm   6.12
89.5   11:30 pm   6.05
89.7   12:00 am   5.84
90.1   12:30 am   5.78   
Went to bed @ 12:30 am
78.5   7:00 am   5.38   

Decided to do a two gal make while I was monitoring the PH level of the milk. I cut a steel press wheel and barrowed a 4 inch hoop from a friend. I did not use any starter, the Ph drop was slow so I missed every target PH.
4:30 pm heated to 88 degrees PH 6.75
Held for 45 minutes PH 6.74
Added 1/4  teaspoon of Rennet  6.74
Floc 14 minutes cut at 42 minutes PH 6.73
Held 5 minutes, heated to 102 degrees over 50 minutes PH 6.69
Held for 45 minutes PH 6.68
Drained and added 1 1/2 teaspoon salt – Note PH dropped by .05 right away PH 6.63
Cheddared for 80 minutes PH 6.59 and pressed overnight PH 5.32 when removed from press this morning.
Left cheese out at room temp to dry and PH is 5.23 as of 5:30 pm today.
It dawned on me last night the only recent change I have made was the salt I was using, I went from using canning/pickling salt to using Morton flaked salt. It was interesting to see a quick drop after salting.

I think the press is a little over kill for the 4 inch hoop.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 04:26:02 PM by Devon »
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2012, 04:30:50 PM »
That's about a normal pH curve for those temps.. I wonder if your previous pH drops were just normal for the heavy load of raw+ added inoculant.
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Offline Devon

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Re: sudden drop in PH
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2012, 05:40:34 PM »
So what would your recommendations be for the next make to reach a 5.2 – 5.3 finial PH? Leave out the starter, reduce the amount used? Any other changes?

Strange that I have to worry about a salted cheese in the press, I guess I won’t be pressing overnight.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 06:03:04 PM by Devon »
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