Author Topic: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!  (Read 11597 times)

Offline iratherfly

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2012, 02:08:24 PM »
Tomer - yes, winemaking too!
Luis - yes, it works with Camembert, though I find that Camembert is a lot easier to destroy with improper wrap than Reblochon. I usually refrigerate my bloomy rind cheeses on a grille in a box and pat down the rind by hand periodically. I only wrap them for colder long-term storage and packaging. I feel that many of the wrapping materials sold to cheesemakers suffocates bloomy rinds. It causes PC to recede and ammonia to go crazy. Improper Reblochon wrapping mainly causes the rind will get sticky. Geo may recede. Think of the wrap as a portable micro-cave. It needs to let air in and out all around the cheese constantly, yet limit the air flow so moisture won't escape with the air. Check on your cheese like you do in the cave to see if it is aging fine in the wrap. If not - change the wrap or the method. Eventually you will find a method and material that work perfectly consistently for you.

Yes, I ship internationally!

I will have to dig for some photos as I am more focused now on creating new cheeses for the upcoming creamery.... but here is something related I am working on. It's a prototype only (not a production candidate). I nickname it "Reblotin", being a cross between Reblochon and Chevrotin! It's not ready yet (maybe one more week?) but I will take photos when it is. In the meantime, here is a photo of it wrapped and another photo showing the light color rind and dusting of late blooming Geo. You can tell by the photo what I mean when I say it's "pillowy", right?  This is about 1/3 thinner than a Reblochon (hence the 1/3rd less weight) but same diameter


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Online Boofer

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2012, 04:21:07 PM »
I just thought I also sold you the Reblochon moulds so I was surprized; did I not?
Nope, sorry, see the pic.

As I said, I am well pleased with the moulds I did get from you. I'm using them a lot.

Looking forward to seeing your business come together. You may become the newest "go to" guy.  ;)

-Boofer-
Let's ferment something!
Bread, beer, wine, cheese...it's all good.

Offline iratherfly

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2012, 09:25:28 AM »
Thanks Boofer! I am anxious to out it up and out there too!

Offline JayW

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2012, 10:48:50 AM »
There are some questions I have in other areas though:
  • Floc factor...1.5?  Shouldn't this be like 4 for higher moisture?
  • Brine time...45 minutes per side?  Is that sufficient? I've been brining for 2 hours per side and that's not overly salted.
  • Morge should be 5-6%, not 3%?
  • So there is no "cooking time"? I ripened at 88F; at .1 delta I raised the temp to 94F for some cooking time.
  • Some recipes called for a late dusting of PC. No, huh?
  • I had thought that the pH needed to drop to 4.90 or so prior to salting/brining. No, huh? I think Debi's floc chart shows that.
Reblochon #4 coming up!  ;)  Geesh, I haven't finished #3 yet.

-Boofer-


The coagulation factor is really quite short. This really is in line with the other alpine technologies even though it is a semi-soft cheese.
I have been vat side quite a bit on the mountain alpage there and i do actually keep time notes for things such as rennet addition floc verification final cut and curd stir times as well as temps. This is where i get my info for research and my workshop recipes. I have also visted Jos. Paccards aging center in the mountains above Thone for ripening progressions
indeed the actual coag factor is 1.4-1.5 ... the cut is very quick and into the molds. The drama is really in the cave. I attended one of their regional competitions a couple of years ago in LaClusaz and saw quite a diversity in styles.
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Offline linuxboy

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2012, 11:29:08 AM »
Jim, I am sure with that milk and some good casein breakdown due to a slow ripening, it is possible to achieve a good set with a shorter floc multiplier. However, in practice IMHO reblochon is a little more to the tomme side of Savoie practices, given that it is made in the valley and not in the mountains. So for US makers who often have access only to pooled milk (meaning Holstein), it's not outrageous to up the multiplier a little to achieve the same final moisture.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2012, 12:02:52 PM »
Thanks Jim!
Yes, my formula here actually specifies 2.5 total floc multiplier (originally I confused people by telling them to add x1.5 time once they get flocculation, I re-worded it since).  I don't think that with most of the raw milk here it would work below that.  I am now working with raw milk from Dutch Belted cows which is closer in quality to the alpine stuff than Holstein is. The fat globules are tiny, it's almost as naturally homogenized as goat's milk. That means less fat floating and more of it in the cheese. It really affects the end flavor and texture. I can probably push the curd out at x2 multiplier with that one. I choose to go longer so I catch more thermophilic activity; it gives me a more stable cheese and slightly longer aging. It's a good balance.  But the most important thing you are pointing out here is that a recipe isn't just a recipe - one must be sensitive to the environmental factors and be able to change the recipe based on listening to the milk.

Offline JayW

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2012, 12:45:11 PM »
given that it is made in the valley and not in the mountains.

and therein lies our difference in perception.
Great Reblochon comes from the Alpage. All of my visits have been on the mountain and the only Reblochon I buy is from one or two of these farms .. yes i have been to the valley coop in Thone and the cheese there leaves me cold. In Manigod Jos Paccard still buys only from the mountain makers for his aging.
And here I have a great milk cross between Jersey/Normand which works quite well with the practices i have seen in France but you are absolutely right .. not everyone has access to this kind of milk and i see where the extended time can give you some decent results.
Jim Wallace .. the "Tech Guy" at www.cheesemaking.com
                    ...... current workshops are online and filling up quickly now! http://www.cheesemaking.com/JimW.html

Offline linuxboy

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2012, 12:58:05 PM »
Sure, sure, it's just that historically, the cheese developed from this whole taxation issue. And much of that happened around centers of population and learning, such as abbeys. It's hard to go chase someone on a mountain to get money from them. Sticking with those historical practices of the majority, it takes a longer set time than 1.5x to achieve appropriate texture and moisture. And trying to learn from those traditions here in the US, it's like we all have said, as a best practice in a recipe, people will have better results sticking to a longer set of 2.0-2.5x. Here in WA, for example, I know of only two farms with Normande genetics. If someone used 1.5x floc with our predominantly Holstein milk, it would not achieve the best results. It's really great to see the diversity and understand the variations in style and the ensuing results.
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Offline iratherfly

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2012, 12:59:32 AM »
I would love to work with Normande cattle but it seems most are raised by cheesemakers for their own production or for sales in volumes I cannot afford yet. I am currently doing all my raw cow stuff with grass-fed Dutch Belted and it's a world away from Holstein or even Jersey. What would you think I need to change in a given cheese process if I switch from  Dutch to Normande?

By the way I still go for 2,5 multiplier in the Dutch Belted version. I do get it delivered which means it has been refrigerated. Perhaps if it was a direct udder-to-vat situation (as they do in most Reblochon Fermier versions), I would have been able to push it below the x2 floc multiplier.

Offline Oude Kaas

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2012, 03:57:19 PM »
Quote
or even Jersey

How so?


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Offline iratherfly

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2012, 04:23:58 PM »
Actually, being that you work so much with Jersey, maybe you can help me improve my handling of it.  Unlike Holsteins' milk, I actually LOVE Jersey milk, but I have a lot of separation of fat going on is some of the cheeses I make. Come to think of it, I think the Jersey milk I got from you was probably the only one that didn't have this effect.  My theory is that other places where I get the milk standardize it  (skim off the fat and then put back a layer of fat on top of the milk in the % that they claim the milk to be) and at that point I have these useless chinks of fat everywhere.

On some cheese the heat melts them and some goes into the milk but most floats on top of the curd. In lactic cheese where the temperature is low, they butterfat chinks don't even melt.  I can't ladle them into the cheese as they attract contamination, create fatty rind, give me uneven texture and sometime can even go rancid well before the cheese is ready.   I LOVE creamy buttery milk and adding cream to milk with some cheeses, so it is heartbreaking for me to see this incredible milk and then watch all that great butterfat go into the whey instead of staying in my cheese.  With the Dutch Belted I never have this problem because the fat globules are so small that they are just mixed in well with the milk.  Do you think this all has to do with the standardizing of the milk? Do you experienced this with your milk ever? What do you do?

Offline Oude Kaas

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2012, 04:57:56 PM »
Both lactic as non lactic procedures?

Offline iratherfly

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2012, 05:02:50 PM »
Sure. The only exception is with thermophilic cheese where more of it becomes part of the milk as the temp is much higher.

Offline Oude Kaas

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2012, 07:10:09 PM »
As for the lactic procedure, I think Pav wrote about this somewhere on the forum. Basically, as far as I remember, you culture the milk at 70F and wait until the pH drops to about 6.4. Then you stir the milk again to mix in the fat after which you add the rennet. The remaining time it takes now to coagulate the milk might be short enough to keep the fat globules suspended in the milk.

I have tried this several times with varied succes but certainly better results than when adding culture and rennet at the same time.

Offline linuxboy

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Re: The Reblochon AOC Cheesemaking Recipe + Tips + Fun Facts!
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2012, 07:20:12 PM »
Jersey milk is tough whenever I've worked with it. It works reasonably well when used ultra fresh, and when the set is fast. For lactics and semi lactics, best results for me have been taking same-day milk, culturing rather low, to 6.0-6.1, then adding a moderate amount of rennet (2-3 ml 180-200 IMCU per 100 liters or so), and top stirring once in a while to re-incorporate the cream. Hoping Jersey people can chime in. Not my favorite milk unless I skim off some of the cream first. But then very often the protein structure isn't there to produce a balanced cheese.
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