Author Topic: Camembert inside never softens  (Read 2209 times)

Offline dmitrig01

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Camembert inside never softens
« on: July 25, 2012, 04:03:04 PM »
I've tried making camembert twice using this recipe -- http://cheeseforum.org/articles/wiki-brie-camembert-cheese-making-recipe/, substituting in my (raw) goat milk for the cow milk. I keep my ripening fridge around 55°F and near 100% humidity. What happens when I make the cheese is I get a nice white mold around the outside, but after waiting one or two weeks, when I open them up, the inside seems to have dried out -- completely the opposite of a nice paste that I'm looking for. What could I be doing wrong?


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Offline Oberhasli

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2012, 05:29:23 PM »
dmitrig01,

Could you expound a bit on how you ripen your cheeses once they are made?  It would be useful info to see what might be going wrong during your ripening process.  Did you change the recipe at all (substitute different cultures?).

Bonnie
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than do nothing and risk they stay.     Anonymous

Offline dmitrig01

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2012, 07:16:57 PM »
Sure. I'm using a Flora Danica culture with Choozit PC SAM for my cultures. No calcium chloride or lipase, as I'm using raw milk. I've adjusted the rennet amount so I get a flocculation time of around 10 minutes, then multiply the time by 6 and wait that long to cut curds. After that, drain in hoops overnight (12 hours total), flipping a few times. Then into the cheese fridge, 55°F and almost 100% RH, and I leave it in there for all 3 weeks and flip it every day.

Thanks! Dmitri

Offline Oberhasli

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 11:34:47 AM »
Dmitri,

I don't place my cheeses into a ripening fridge until the white bloom covers the cheeses.  After draining and flipping, I place my cheeses in a ripening box in my basement to bloom, while flipping and wiping out excess moisture every day.  I get a nice bloom after 8-10 days.   The temp in my basement is 60-65 degrees.   Once the bloom covers the cheeses, I place them in my refrigerator to finish ripening, while still flipping and wiping out excess moisture every day. 

How long does it take for you to get full mold coverage on your cheeses?  Do you have them in a ripening box as well?  I think it may be taking too long for your cheeses to get their pc coverage before they ripen, hence the dried out appearance.  Just my thoughts.

Bonnie

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than do nothing and risk they stay.     Anonymous

Offline dmitrig01

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2012, 10:26:08 PM »
I've been keeping them on the counter in a semi-enclosed space; I think the humidity is fairly high, but I can try placing them in a more enclosed container at a higher humidity. I think I get the mold appearing even sooner than that, but I just made a batch last night to check. I'll post back when it blooms. Thanks!


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Offline dmitrig01

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 01:41:16 AM »
So I just made some, and tried ripening at a higher temperature. I got a Geo bloom at day 3 and it's day 6 and the cheese is halfway through a penicillium bloom. The smell is heavenly. Unfortunately, though, I've been hit this time by the dreaded slipskin. I guess I'll have to find a happy medium between the two.

Offline iratherfly

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 01:57:20 AM »
Yes, this seems to be growing way too fast which indicates some combination of cheese that hasn't drainer properly, or tumidity too high, or very aggressive PC/Geo.

Which geo are you using?
Why are you using SAM3? Are you having mucor issues?  I've been seeing a lot of people use it here lately and I have no idea why. Is any of the online store out there pushing it?  Use ABL, VS or VB. They are more traditional.

What you are describing seem like a proper make and you are just aging them too wet and too long.
Think of it as cooking. If your fire is too hot and you fry a chicken breast, you will burn the outside before the inside ever get a chance go get cooked, right? Same thing here. Reduce humidity and temperature and/or use less aggressive strains = like reducing the flame on that chicken breast. Now it can all cook together comfortably. Make sense?

Offline Tiarella

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 10:35:51 AM »
I'm confused.  Dmitrig mentions getting a Geo bloom then a PC bloom.  What is the Geo Bloom?

Offline max1

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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2012, 02:55:55 AM »
You make camembert traditionally with two types of rind species. Geotrichum Candidum ("Geo") is a yeast-like mold that first grows on the cheese. It has soft slicky/slimy/velvety apeparance and creamy color. It deacidifies the surface and prepares it to the subsequent growth of Penicilium Caldidum ("PC") which is the second specie. Penicilium Candidum is the velvety white mold that gives the Camembert its trademark appearance. Unlike the Geo, the PC is white and dry to the touch. The geo becomes the underside of the rind and together they break down proteins in the next 2-3 weeks to create that gooey texture, and breakdown fatty acids to give it this sharp flavor profile.  You have to grow them slowly and together to get a good Camembert without ammonia buildup and  avoiding rubbery or opposite -liquid-like interior (gooey/supple - yes, liquidy - no!) The whole secret to perfect Camembert is to learn to control these two and make sure they play nice with one another.


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Offline Tiarella

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2012, 05:57:58 AM »
The whole secret to perfect Camembert is to learn to control these two and make sure they play nice with one another.

Thanks so much for that clarification.  So, how come recipes I've seen don't mention adding the Geo?  Is it a common opportunistic strain that often shows up anyway?  Or am I just seeing the beginner recipes that don't want to have a long ingredient requirement list?

And, if I were to buy a book, or maybe even two to support my cheesemaking addiction, do you have a recommendation(s) that might help me learn the underlying "why" of the many intricacies of cheesemaking?  I know there's tons of info on this site but at age 52, after a lifetime of developing the intuitive aspects of my brain I find some things easier than others to do than others.  It is easy for me to understand the intricacies of a landscape (wild or assisted) or the intricacies of psyche development of a client but difficult to deal with hard numbers and complicated relationships of things like pH, temp, time, etc. until it really settles into an understanding.  Until that happens it's easiest for me to have a source of info that is easy to grab during a make rather than trying to find the best postings on the forum that will help me with a particular situation.  Any suggestions will be appreciated.  I currently have Ricki's book (not too impressed but I do cross reference with it), the "Goats Produce Too" cheesemaking book and I check recipes online at Gavin's site and Ricki's site.  (the recipes on her site are different than in her book often)
Also, I can't find PLA anywhere on supply sites so I assume it is listed in a way that I am not recognizing......?
Thanks so much for your help!

Offline bbracken677

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2012, 07:52:16 PM »
Every recipe I have found has referenced Geo and PC, either adding to the milk or spraying on after the salting of the cheese.

As far as books...I have yet to find one that has near the information available online...even though online you may often run across conflicting information.

For recipes I have almost exclusively changed to using ones from this site, even though I may compare to recipes available from other sites...I think that between the recipes and make notes available, not to mention being able to ask questions is so much more valuable than anything you could get from the books I have managed to get a peak at.
The ones I have seen have rather simplistic recipes and instructions.

For PLA :  http://www.danlac.com/ingredient/pla-lyo-10-d-aroma-development-culture-cheese
« Last Edit: August 19, 2012, 08:15:38 PM by bbracken677 »

Offline Boofer

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2012, 12:44:12 AM »
And, if I were to buy a book,
You might also check out this thread.

Also, I can't find PLA anywhere on supply sites so I assume it is listed in a way that I am not recognizing......?
Thanks so much for your help!
Also, see the attachment for PLA.

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Offline iratherfly

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2012, 02:26:51 AM »
Also, I can't find PLA anywhere on supply sites so I assume it is listed in a way that I am not recognizing......?

I carry it! Come'on Boofer! $16.99 -cheaper than Glengerry, Danlac or anywhere else!  ...bbracken677, for your information too. You can PM me if you need stuff.

Tiarella, this Margaret Morris recipe is kind of a quick hack for something that kind of looks like Camembert (Didn't I write about this before somewhere here?). She made something that is really easy to make and doesn't have the issues that beginners struggle with (such as slipping skin due to overgrowth of geo) -but the results are quite lackluster; Not a Camembert that you would want to buy. Without Geo it will lack much of the flavor, color, aroma and texture development.

I recently posted here a fairly complete formula for the classic French style farmstead/artisan Camembert. Have you seen this post? Weren't you on that thread?  This one contains PLA or better yet, ARN (which I also stock).

For books, I think that 200 easy cheese making recipes is a good start and can give you lots of ideas and recipes for a while, before going into more advanced professional reading such as American Farmstead Cheese or the Technology of Cheesemaking, etc. I have a good library of those at home -please send me a message if you want some title names.  I would stay away from the Riki Carrol and Tim Smith books. The Joy of Cheesemaking is a confusing and convoluted read with about 200 pages and only 4 recipes, even though it was written by two of my favorite cheesemakers.

Offline Boofer

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Re: Camembert inside never softens
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2012, 08:46:41 AM »
I carry it! Come'on Boofer! $16.99 -cheaper than Glengerry, Danlac or anywhere else!
Hmmm, if I only had a product list....  ;)   Is the website up?

Seriously, Yoav, I am short on a number of things (SR3 for one) and would buy from you if I knew what you had.

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