CheeseForum.org ยป Forum

GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Making Cheese, Coagulation => Topic started by: Zinger on December 10, 2009, 07:40:29 PM

Title: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Zinger on December 10, 2009, 07:40:29 PM
My recipe (Ricki Carroll) calls for a curd set time of 1 hour. However, when I do my own floc test using the spinning bowl method, it should take no more than 24 minutes. This is a great disparity, any thoughts?
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: FRANCOIS on December 10, 2009, 08:09:40 PM
I would ignore Ricky Carrol.  Her time is from addition of rennet to "clean break" which is a poor measure of curd set.  Measure your floc time (should be 10-14 minutes) and multiply by 3 for gouda.  This time is the total time from rennet addition to cut.  I would add CaCl to make sure you get a good hard set.  the floc multiplier can be adjusted either way based on the first batch, but I normally start with 3 for a first batch and go from there.  For raw milk my multipliers vary seasonally from 5 in the winter to 1.5 in the summer for hard cheese.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Zinger on December 10, 2009, 08:48:39 PM
Francois, thanks for your reply. My floc time was 8 minutes, so I allowed 25 minutes for curd set and then checked my break. It was a pretty good break, but I decided to let it set for another 10 minutes - just because. At that point I had a good clean break. I have just stared to use the "spinning bowl" method and have been happy going that route.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: FRANCOIS on December 10, 2009, 10:02:14 PM
So your multiplier was then 4.375.  This is really pushing it for gouda. Remeber the longer you let it set, the higher the bound moisture in the curd.  If you didn't have a firm set at 3x floc, waiting won't make it any firmer.  As a comparison, something like a soft ripened cheese I would use a 6x multiplier for.  Fresh cheese gets 12x  or more.  Romano and hard italian cheeses get 1-1.25x.

Wait and see how firm the curd is after molding.  If it's too soft, cut your multiplier in half and make further adjustments from there.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Zinger on December 10, 2009, 10:35:09 PM
Thanks again, I learned something today. But then again I'm always learning something here. I'll report my results later.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on December 10, 2009, 10:47:39 PM
Zinger - 8 minutes is a little fast. Try reducing your rennet just a little and shoot for 10-15 minutes for flocculation. Trust the spinning bowl and cut your curds on schedule - regardless. It's that exact timing that will help give you consistent moisture in your finished cheese.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: FRANCOIS on December 10, 2009, 10:55:27 PM
Set time time is very temp. dependent too, more so than rennet dependent.  I would verify temp. first and change rennet from there.  Setup can also vary by the milk casein make up. 
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Zinger on December 10, 2009, 11:48:08 PM
My temp was precisely at 90 degrees as specified in the recipe.

Francois, when you suggest that I verify temperature and then change the rennet from there, can you elaborate.

Sailor, the recipe (from Ricki Carroll) calls for 1/2 tsp of rennet and 2 gallons of milk. I use 3 gallons of milk so consequently have increased my rennet to 3/4 tsp. When I decided to increase my quantity of milk, I emailed Ricki Carrol's organization and was told to increase other ingredients proportionately. Am I using too much rennet. In fact, I would expand that question include the other ingredients. Should I also use 1 1/2  paks of starter instead of 1 pak that the 2 milk recipe calls for? Should I also be increasing my calcium chloride proportionately?

Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: FRANCOIS on December 11, 2009, 12:34:43 AM
I mean that all parameters are interdependent.  If you change one (like set temp) you then need to adjust the others (amount of CaCl, rennet and cut time) to find the optimum result.  Change any one of these parameters and the others need to be adjusted to compensate. 
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on December 11, 2009, 01:04:32 AM
I use 3/4 tsp rennet for a 4 gallon batch. Usually gives a 12-13 minute floc time.

My bottles of rennet from Glengarry (Danisco) and Hoeggar both say 3/4 tsp for 15 liters (close to 4 gallons).

Francois is absolutely right (of course :o). Temp, milk quality, etc. all effect curd set. That's why it's really important to use floc point instead of just time. Assume that your floc time is 8 and mine is 13. If we both just use 45 minutes from a recipe then our finished results will be quite different. However, using a floc multiplier of 3, you would set for 24 minutes. Mine would set for 36. And we would get the same results.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: rosawoodsii on May 24, 2011, 12:33:56 PM
Measure your floc time (should be 10-14 minutes) and multiply by 3 for gouda.  This time is the total time from rennet addition to cut.  I would add CaCl to make sure you get a good hard set.  the floc multiplier can be adjusted either way based on the first batch, but I normally start with 3 for a first batch and go from there.  For raw milk my multipliers vary seasonally from 5 in the winter to 1.5 in the summer for hard cheese.

I realize this is a very old thread, but it did raise some questions for me.

I use raw goat milk.  Do I still need to add CaCl?  I thought that was only for pasteurized milk.

Also, does flocculation time vary with goat milk compared to cow milk?  Or perhaps the question really is, does the amount of rennet vary between cow milk and goat milk?
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: linuxboy on May 24, 2011, 03:13:02 PM
Quote
I use raw goat milk.  Do I still need to add CaCl?  I thought that was only for pasteurized milk.
You can use it for all milk where you want to strengthen the strength of the set. Sometimes, raw milk needs it, like for winter milk.
Quote
Also, does flocculation time vary with goat milk compared to cow milk?  Or perhaps the question really is, does the amount of rennet vary between cow milk and goat milk?
It varies not only with the species, but also with the breed and the time of year. You adjust rennet amount also with the type of cheese to coincide with the level of calcium retention you want to achieve in combination with the rate of acid development. What I'm trying to say is that you start with a general amount of 7-9 ml single strength per 100 lbs of milk, and then adjust so you achieve a flocculation time of 10-15 mins. We had a long discussion about this about 3 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: rosawoodsii on May 24, 2011, 04:07:06 PM
Quote
We had a long discussion about this about 3 weeks ago

Thank you. 

Can you direct me to that discussion?

Today I decided to make Monterey Jack.  Recipe calls for clean break at 40 minutes.  Flocculation took 5-1/2 minutes.  Whew!  Much too fast, right?  For Jack cheese I'm assuming a factor of 3, like Colby (I couldn't find reference to Jack).  Would that be correct?

Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: linuxboy on May 24, 2011, 04:28:29 PM
It was Steff's thread
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7117.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7117.0.html)
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7139.msg50880.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7139.msg50880.html)

5.5 mins is fast. Should be 10-12.

factor of 3-3.5 for jack.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: rosawoodsii on May 24, 2011, 04:41:56 PM
Next time I'll cut back on the rennet.  I used vegetable double strength--I never know whether it really is double strength, but perhaps it is.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on May 25, 2011, 01:25:00 PM
It was Steff's thread
[url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7117.0.html[/url] ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7117.0.html[/url])
[url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7139.msg50880.html[/url] ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,7139.msg50880.html[/url])

5.5 mins is fast. Should be 10-12.

factor of 3-3.5 for jack.
Just for clarification...what is the impact of a fast floc? I've been using dry calf rennet and have experienced a few (1/8 - 1/16 tsp in 4 gallons) in the 5-8 minute range.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 25, 2011, 01:34:28 PM
Boof - I find powdered rennet difficult to work with because of inconsistencies in dry measurement. With small batches of milk, even a few drops can make a big difference in floc time.

A fast floc will age faster, but also has tendencies towards bitter flavors.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on May 25, 2011, 01:45:41 PM
Thanks for your quick response, Sailor.

I've been using the dry rennet because I don't make cheese on a regular basis like you and your creamery.

Would it be beneficial to get a gram scale and measure my dry matter that way? Seems like that would reduce or eliminate differences in measurement.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: linuxboy on May 25, 2011, 01:59:05 PM
In terms of the physical properties, it's also complex. Thing about curd as a special kind of solid, whose properties such as friability and water retention vary with the properties of the milk, and the rate of change of these properties also varies with the amount of enzyme present.

If you load it up with enzyme, you will get very solid curd very fast. It will require you to accelerate everything, and adjust your make parameters so that your final moisture is still the same as adding less enzyme, and coincides with the right rate of acid development, and right rate of water loss from the curd (matched to curd size, agitation, and temp).

If you have a fast floc, you need to adjust everything else to happen faster. And it's not a linear adjustments, it's multivariable. That's why you want a relatively slow floc, because it's more flexible and accommodates humans. Robots or automated processing lines could accomplish the same end outcome much faster.

Also, there is the bitterness issue, but there are ways around it (heat, enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis, etc)
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on May 25, 2011, 02:02:08 PM
Quote
enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis

Curious on this, Pav.  Which enzymes are fairly specific for these peptides?
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: linuxboy on May 25, 2011, 02:13:51 PM
Which peptides?  8)  :P
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on May 25, 2011, 02:15:43 PM
Quote from: Pav
enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis

Which enzyme or enzymes are you referring to?
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: rosawoodsii on May 25, 2011, 04:54:20 PM
If you have a fast floc, you need to adjust everything else to happen faster. And it's not a linear adjustments, it's multivariable. That's why you want a relatively slow floc, because it's more flexible and accommodates humans. Robots or automated processing lines could accomplish the same end outcome much faster.

Also, there is the bitterness issue, but there are ways around it (heat, enzyme crafting for hydrophobic terminal catabolysis, etc)

Adjust everything as in curd cooking time and aging?  Does it acidify more quickly as well?

And uh...would you please explain "enzyme crafting" and  "hydrophobic terminal cataboysis"?  I've been pretty much a seat-of-the-pants cheesemaker until lately, when I tried a couple of my cheeses that were wonderful--and couldn't remember how I made them, even what recipe I used.  That convinced me that I need to get a bit more organized.

Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: linuxboy on May 25, 2011, 05:27:03 PM
Quote
Adjust everything as in curd cooking time and aging?  Does it acidify more quickly as well?
Has nothing to do with acidity rate, that's starter.
Quote
And uh...would you please explain "enzyme crafting" and  "hydrophobic terminal cataboysis"?
Do you really want to know? If you do call me (PM), it takes too long to type. Lots more you can learn before you get into that level of specificity.
Quote
  I've been pretty much a seat-of-the-pants cheesemaker until lately, when I tried a couple of my cheeses that were wonderful--and couldn't remember how I made them, even what recipe I used.  That convinced me that I need to get a bit more organized.
There's lot you can do to systematize things before you need to understand how enzymes interact with peptides.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on May 25, 2011, 05:54:14 PM
Quote from: The Turophilic Hookup
Do you really want to know? If you do call me (PM)..


Be afraid, rosa.  Be very afraid, rosa.  Sure, it sounds all inviting and friendly; that's hot it all started for me, too.  Now, only my dog understands why dad has got red eyes, volumes of books and articles bedside, and a stack of batteries for the reading-light at hand's readiness.  And my wife's "it's just cheese, for criminy's sake" met with the 1000 yard-stare, then tears.  Torrents and torrents of hanging, salty tears.
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: rosawoodsii on May 26, 2011, 02:18:10 AM
Quote from: The Turophilic Hookup
Do you really want to know? If you do call me (PM)..


Be afraid, rosa.  Be very afraid, rosa.  Sure, it sounds all inviting and friendly; that's hot it all started for me, too.  Now, only my dog understands why dad has got red eyes, volumes of books and articles bedside, and a stack of batteries for the reading-light at hand's readiness.  And my wife's "it's just cheese, for criminy's sake" met with the 1000 yard-stare, then tears.  Torrents and torrents of hanging, salty tears.

 ;D  But a cheesemaking beats any other kind of addiction hands down!
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: Boofer on May 26, 2011, 02:01:17 PM
Be afraid, rosa.  Be very afraid, rosa.  Sure, it sounds all inviting and friendly; that's hot it all started for me, too.  Now, only my dog understands why dad has got red eyes, volumes of books and articles bedside, and a stack of batteries for the reading-light at hand's readiness.  And my wife's "it's just cheese, for criminy's sake" met with the 1000 yard-stare, then tears.  Torrents and torrents of hanging, salty tears.
Pure poetry. Thanks, Paul, for starting my day with a smile  :) .

I just get the resigned look from my wife and maybe an utterance like "Eh, oh you're doing cheese."

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: george on May 26, 2011, 02:09:47 PM
BWAH!!  I had to make a deal with my sister - if she tells me a chicken story, I get to tell her a cheese story.   ;D
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: ArnaudForestier on May 26, 2011, 06:41:25 PM
I'm glad at least we all understand each other...sniff, sniff. ;D
Title: Re: Coagulation, Rennet - Flocculation Time, Gouda Cheese?
Post by: OzzieCheese on November 05, 2011, 01:23:15 AM
Hot damn I'm lucky.  My wife orgainises the weekend so I get at least one day to cheese. She loves me and my crazy obsessions. :P