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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Making Cheese, Coagulation => Topic started by: tal_d1 on April 28, 2012, 07:15:42 PM
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Hi all. I really need your advice.
Last night I tried to make Colby and it turn out to disaster. I am making cheese for a month and a half only. I check for floc time and it took about 50 minute and after 2.5 hours I haven't got a clean break. So as usual a start reading in this forum and learned that normal floc time is about 12 to 15 minute. I am using 3% homo/past milk.
After reading, I decided to try JeffHam advice to adjust the rennet amount to get 12-15 minute floc time. I am using Maxiren vegetable rennet, 6 drops for 4L. I am doing the drops with pipette. So the change I did is to use syringe instead of pipette. The syringe give me twice size drop compare to the pipette and I did two tests:
1. 4L/4 syringe drops and get 23 minute floc time.
2. 4L/6 syringe drops and get 14 minute floc time and for feta I took coagulation time of 1 hour (4X) and it was ok but when I tried to make mozzarella that I make few time with a big success the cheese turn out not smooth as always.
What I afraid is that this is a big amount of rennet and if I will make hard cheese like Parmesan I do not want to find out after a year of waiting that the cheese is bitter.
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Your 14 minute floc time is good for most hard or semi-hard cheeses.
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Tast it - if it is bitter now it may even out some after aging but you'll know to adjust you rennet.
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The mozzarella taste ok, no bitterness.
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It should be fine. A floc of 14 minutes means that you're using an appropriate amount of rennet. Bitterness due to rennet occurs when you use too much. Sounds to me like you've sorted out how much to use.
Just keep good notes. For most cheeses I make I use 0.6 mls of my stongest rennet, but when I make butterkase, I have to cut back. I think the acidity development of the cultures in that cheesemake is just greater and the rennet works faster.
- Jeff
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Hi Jeff and thanks. it's your post that push me to do the tests.
I hope i found the way to make my cheeses right...
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Well, thing went on the good and bad side.
I made 3 cheeses with the new amount of rennet:
1. feta - this one turn out fantastic, greet taste and texture no bitterness. 4L H/P 3% milk, warm milk to 320C/89F, 1/4 tsp grained calcium, 1/8 tsp mm100 and 6 drops of rennet. 18 hours of draining.
2. Mozzarella - Texture and taste are good and no bitterness but after i took it out from the ice water it start to set aside milk like is melting and shrinking. for this cheese i use 4L H/P 3% milk, 6 drops of rennet.
3. The third one is Israel cheese name Safed cheese
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:Safed_cheese.JPG (http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%91%D7%A5:Safed_cheese.JPG) .
It is semi soft cheese. 3L H/P milk, warm milk to 40C/104F, less then 1/4 tsp grained calcium 4 drops of rennet. this cheese. I think it was ready to cut after 30 minute but i cut it after 50 minute . 36 hours of draining and then one day at the refrigerator. The result was ugly cheese, bitter and weird feeling in mouth (hard to describe) and more dense.
So i kind of confuse now trying to understand what make the bitterness of the third one. I did not use more rennet but maybe to long floc time and maybe to much rennet for the kind of cheese and for the temperature.
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What is "grained calcium"?
-Boofer-
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http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/201111/China_Calcium_Chloride2011111417183510.jpg (http://upload.ecvv.com/upload/Product/201111/China_Calcium_Chloride2011111417183510.jpg)
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That's what I thought. Most of the time dry CACL is mixed with water prior to use to make up a 30% solution. There is a very definite thermal reaction when the dry chemical is added to water. I'm not sure what that would do to the milk or other ingredients. Also, 1/4 tsp dry CACL seems like a lot, especially for that volume of milk.
-Boofer-
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Maybe i know where my is problem:
When i started to make cheese i use for 4L of milk 1/4 of dry CALC and 0.3 ml rennet and
get the milk ready for cut after 75 minutes and the cheese always were good. then
i start using the 33% CALC and then start the problem of a very long coagulation time (150 minutes).
So in order to shorten the coagulation time i start using 1/4 dry CALC and i doubled the amount
of the rennet. So the problem with the bitterness of the Safed cheese and the milky Mozzarella must to
be due to the big amount of the rennet.
Today i will make few test and will update.
Dry CALC should be use as 0.02% of milk. 1/4 dry CALC is about 0.8g and it is exactly 0.02% of
4L milk. When i started to use the 33% CALC i decrease the amount of CALC to ~ 0.0066% and this
is not enough to the kind of milk i am using.
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Tal,
Why arent your using a messo starter for the Tzfatit?
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Hi tal_d1,
It could be that the bitterness is due to an interaction between the rennet and CaCl. You were using less rennet and 1/4 CaCl, and things were fine. Once you switched to 33% solution, your floc times increased, so you increased rennet but went back to the 1/4 tsp dry CaCl. Perhaps if you stuck with the 33% solution when you increased the rennet you would be fine.
Anyway, you seem to be narrowing things down. You'll get there I'm sure.
- Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
I haven't thought about your idea. right now i am trying the old
way of using 1/4 dry CALC and less rennet because i afraid to age
my cheeses and find out after a year or so that the cheese is bitter.
The rennet i am using should be use as 1 drop/1L and i am using 1.5 drop/1L
so i already use more. Today i made feta and got floc
time of 30 minutes. i know it is a little long but i guess i
have no choice.
What make me confuse is that with the 1/4 dry CALC and the increased amount
of rennet i got one cheese excellent and one bitter and ugly.
Maybe the interaction of temp and CALC/rennet influence bitterness ?
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So i made 2 new cheeses: all with 3% h/p milk.
1. feta. worm 4L to 32C, add 1/4 dry cacl2 and 1/8 mm100 and let sit 1 hour.
after 1 hour add 6 pipette drops of rennet. 25 minute floc time and cut after 100 minutes.
Let drain for 15 hours. I test the cheese and was little bitterness and i think that i did
not felt the bitterness with the previous feta was because the salt taste from brine.
2. Zfatit cheese. warm 3L to 40C and add little less then 1/4 dry cacl2, add 4 pipette drops of rennet.
cut after 100 minutes. after few stirs i removed 1/3 of whey and add 3 tbs of salt. transfer
to mold and let drain 18 hours.
again ugly bitter cheese.
Since i add a little amount of rennet i understand that there is a problem with
the amount of cacl2 that i add and decided to take Jeff idea and do set of tests.
At the first 2 test i did not add any cacl2 and increase the amount of rennet:
1. Zfatit cheese. warm to 40C and add 1/16 ma011 and 6 pipette drops of rennet.
cut after 50 minutes! after few stirs i removed 1/3 of whey and add 3 tbs of salt. transfer
to mold. curds are good, firm as with cacl2. So what i understand is the the temperature
have a great role. After 18 hours drain at room temperature the cheese become much dry and firm over what it should be and also ugly and sour.
2. Feta, process as before, no cacl2, 8 pipette drops of rennet. One hour and
to folc time so tomorrow new test with 1/4 33% cacl2.
New day new test again the same 2 cheeses. (Room temperature 28C)
1. Zfatit cheese. 3L of milk, warm to 38C and add 1/4 tsp 33% cacl2, 2 tsp of leben (cultured milk), 2 tsp of vinegar and 4 pipette drops of rennet.
cut after 35 minutes!? ( after few stirs i removed 1/3 of whey and add 3 tbs of salt. transfer
to mold. This time because of Room temperature i put to drain in the refrigerator for 8 hours.
Cheese turn out great! no bitterness, sour or what ever.
1. feta. worm 4L to 32C, add 1/4 tsp 33% cacl2 and 1/8 mm100 and let sit 1 hour.
after 1 hour add 12 pipette drops of rennet. 10 minute floc time (so fast) and cut after 40 minutes. This time because of Room temperature i put to drain in the refrigerator but after 18 hours the cheese was to wet so i took it out to room temperature with air conditioning for 12 more hours. Cheese is great.
Those last 2 cheese where floc very fast and i did not use more rennet then before and i use less cacl2 then before maybe Room temperature or because the end of the rennet
is more concentrated.
This is my last test for now and i finished all my rennet and i am waiting for new one from cheesemaking.com which give the amount to use.
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i am waiting for new one from cheesemaking.com which give the amount to use.
I am totally a beginner at cheesemaking, but one thing I found out is that the rennet reacts differently with different milks. The amount usually suggested on US rennet I suspect is for the practically manufactured milk one buys here in the store. I know this differs from milk sold overseas as I have been overseas and found out ;) So I would suggest that you go with what works and not with the instructions on the bottle.
I myself have a cow, so the milk I use is also different, and I use less than 1/2 the amount recommended on the rennet bottle as a result of testing the floc (I am sooo grateful to the folks here who have really helped me out!)
ETA: Also, I wonder if maybe you should be using "floc x" rather than a set amount of time, as before when you were doing it, you had a certain time you let it set, but your floc times differed. I am sure someone else would be able to explain that better than I can.