CheeseForum.org » Forum

CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: JeffHamm on July 01, 2013, 05:59:11 AM

Title: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 01, 2013, 05:59:11 AM
Giving Brie another go.  The cheese was very wet, and quite a bit softer when I finally did salt it.  It may have retained more moisture than any of my previous makes despite letting it drain for an extra 1/2 day.  I thought I had stirred more this time, but perhaps not.  I'll have to keep an eye on it, and hopefully it will ripen properly.  Fingers crossed.

- Jeff

Brie (from 200 homemade cheese) Sunday, June 30, 2013: Barm 1009, 20C, 70% humidity

5 Litres Silver top (4.0% fat, 3.3g protein/100 ml; pasteurized creamline)
3 ice cubes meso (2 MM MW3 + 1 buttermilk)
¼ tsp CalCl (50%)
0.3 ml 750 IMCU Rennet
Section of rind from existing brie or cam (mashed about in boiled/cooled water; Whitestone Brie, 2013 “champion”)

1) add mould solution (wasn’t ready with this) and culture and warm to 31 C (7:28-7:32 ; 31.0 C)
3) Ripen 30 minutes (7:32 - 8:02; 29.5 C) – I added a ripening time (added mould during ripening)
4) add CaCl (7:51, during ripening) and then add rennet (8:02:00; 29.5 c)
5) floc time = 8:18:00 = 16 m 00 s 6x multiplier = 96 m 00 sec = cut time of 9:38:00
6) cut into 2.5 cm cubes
7) let heal (5 minutes in book; go for 15 9:41 - 10:02)
8) stir very gently 15 minutes (10:02 - 10:17) or until curd starts to shrink a bit
9) let settle
10) remove whey (to level of curd – I just used a slotted spoon to shift curds, no whey removed as the curds don’t sink far anyway)
11) ladle curds into to one ½ brie molds (10:25 ish - 10:40)  Filled one mould
12) settle 2 hours (3 this time), then flip (flipped at 1:25 – put other mould on top, easy peasy)
13) settle 2 hours, flip (flipped at 3:25.)
14) flip every couple hours, then leave to drain overnight (flipped , 5:15, 7:00 pm)
   - flipped again at 6:00 am.  Still quite thick.  Will continue to drain until evening.  Feels quite soft at 5:30 when salting
15) 5:30 pm sprinkle the top of cheese with 1.5 tsp salt flip salt other side (1 tsp)
16) air dry for the day or 2? (until ?:?? pm); moved to cave after salting.
16) put in the ripening box (on chopsticks and mat) and flip daily (removing any whey)  was very wet and soft on day 1 flip, dried with paper towel and resalted the previous down side that was wet as salt probably washed off.
17) should see mould in 7  to 10 days, about day 12-14, wrap and leave in cheese fridge another week
18) after 1 more week (week 3 from make) move to cold fridge for 4-6 weeks

At salting was 1604g (but that includes box cover, mat, and chopsticks; which weighed 280, so 1324g of cheese). 
First mould spotted on :
Good coverage.  Wrapped in foil:
moved to regular fridge (wrapped in foil, in box; flip daily):

Tasting: ???day, ??? ??, 201?: cut day.  ???g.  . 
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 01, 2013, 01:33:20 PM
Looks good, Jeff. I'll be watching this one too. Haven't done any PC-ripened cheese yet. Maybe I should one of these days. :)

1) add mould solution (wasn’t ready with this)
What do you mean here?

How would you sum up your previous three Brie efforts?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 01, 2013, 06:19:26 PM
Hi Boofer,

The mould solution is just a morge (sp?), you know, take some rind from a store bought Brie, mash it about in some warm water, remove chunky bits, add to milk.  I forgot to do that when I was warming up the milk and so had to quickly prepare it and add it later.

My first Brie effort, where I made a 10 Litre make for 2 cheeses, was a disaster.  They over ripened, turned to liquid, and never really progressed properly.

My second Brie was an outstanding success.  Beautiful rind, ripened to perfection all the way to the middle, great flavour, exactly what I would like to do again. 

My third Brie was comci comca (so-so in French).  I cut into it a bit soon, although it was the same time frame as the second one, and it was showing some signs of slipskin.  The centre was still chalky.  It was edible, but more like a lactic cheese.  However, after another week or so, it did ripen and was quite good.  It ended up over-ripened though, as I wasn't sampling it thinking it wasn't going to develop given the slip-skin. 

This one has that overly moist feeling that the first make had, so I'm worried already.  I've flipped it this morning and more whey had been expelled overnight.  I've drained that, wiped it down with paper towel (if it stays too wet then wild geo goes wild on it, which was the problem with make 1.  I've salted the previous wet down side again, as most of the salt would have washed off due to the seepage).

So, armed with my previous failures, but buoyed by hope from my success, I soldier on.  We are marching to Breitoria ...

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 02, 2013, 01:47:32 PM
Yeah, that's rather what I figured, but I just wanted confirmation.

This "rind developing the inner paste" idea can be rather elusive, huh? ::) You might think you have a sense of how things should progress, but then things don't happen the way that you expect and you're left to scramble to figure out the corrective course of action. Like rolling the dice.... :P

Thankfully, I think we both have a couple repeat performances in other styles that contribute a modicum of confidence that we know what we're doing. (Yeah, right.) Still a lot of learning going on here, huh? Good stuff. 8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 02, 2013, 06:42:21 PM
Hi Boofer,

Yah, I've had some good repeats in hard cheddar types, and in washed curd as well.  My mould ripened ones are less consistent.  It seems, though, that with these Brie getting the curd to the right moisture level before moulding is critical.  This one might have been slightly under renneted, which may result in a slightly softer curd?  Or, more likely, as we're going into winter, the milk may be processed differently?  Perhaps they add cream (this is a cream line milk) and it's been higher heat pasturized?  All guess work here, and all ideas to help deflect responsibility away from me of course! :)  Anyway, it's still draining a bit of whey, and the mat is soaking when I flip (so I have to dry out the box, wipe the cheese dry with paper towel, but I'm not adding more salt anymore, the extra salting should have ensured it has enough by now).  If it is too wet, bad things will happen and it won't develop mould properly.  I might air dry it a bit this evening, and add that to my routine, to try and get this one on track.  The curds should be firmer - I think anyway. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 03, 2013, 08:31:30 PM
Ok, it's Thursday morning here and I think we've got this on back on track.  I've got it sitting on two large hole mats, and those on top of chopsticks.  I put a piece of folded paper towel between the mats to help wick out the moisture from the bottom of the cheese.  This morning, when I flipped the cheese, the paper towel was still wet but the mats were not saturated with whey.  I've been doing this morning and evening since it's gone in the cave on Monday evening.  Until this am, the mats would be soaking, holding the moisture in the holes,a nd the cheese would be dripping wet with whey on the down side.  I would remove that with paper towel (just place it over the cheese and soak up the moisture), dry the mats, replace the folded paper towel between them with a new sheet, and repeat.

On my previous good makes the cheese can sit on these mats and just be flipped each day, there was no excess whey getting stuck in the mats and resulting in the cheese sitting in a puddle all day and all night.  I think I've now got it safe, and I'll continue trying to soak up excess moisture, but hopefully we'll see mould soon.  If it's too wet when the mould shows up the geo goes nuts and slipskin becomes a real problem.  That's what I'm trying to avoid.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 05, 2013, 06:39:38 AM
Sounds like you've got a handle on the situation, Jeff. That's good. I've had that "whey stuck in the holes" problem myself. Thank goodness for paper towels and their wickibility. ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 05, 2013, 07:03:01 AM
Yah, the towel works a treat.  I'm thinking I might take an exacto knife and cut the holes larger so each is the size of 2x2 current holds (just cut out the inner crossing bars).  Would take time, but, well, we're talking cheese making here not the 100 metre dash! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 07, 2013, 06:57:10 PM
Normally I would have seen some mould by now.  So far, the moisture is better (not perfect yet, but better) but no signs of mould sprouting.  Still, it's only just over a week, and some do say that it can take 10-12 days (though I often get mould around 4 or 5 days).  We'll see.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 08, 2013, 07:06:40 PM
Ok, yesterday evening (Moday, July 8th), I saw what might have been a few threads of mould on the side.  This am, we can confirm, two small patches of white mould have shown up on the sides. I've moved the cheese to the top shelf of the cave (it was on the 2nd, so not a big shift) to get it to the warmest location to encourage growth (to quell superstitious thinking as well).  Now, hopefully this progresses well and we get good coverage.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 09, 2013, 12:59:22 PM
Now, hopefully this progresses well and we get good coverage.
<And the crowd waits breathlessly with anxious anticipation....>  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 18, 2013, 06:08:39 AM
Just an update.  The PC is coming along slowly, but nicely.  It's just about fully covered both sides, but there are some bare patches still.  This seems like a very slow developing PC, or, perhaps, the extra salting I had to do early on may have slowed down the development.  It did grow and fill in on the sides more quickly than the faces, and it was the faces that got the extra salting.

Anyway, whatever the reason I'm thinking slow is good and, fingers cross, will be less prone to developing slip skin.  I've been patting down the mould daily.  I'm also pleased that there is no blue contamination this time.  If all goes well, this could be quite a nice outcome.  If ...

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 18, 2013, 01:38:42 PM
Looking good, Jeff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Spellogue on July 19, 2013, 11:35:15 AM
Nice bloom.  I'll take slow and steady over fast and furious any day when it comes to moldy cheese.
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 19, 2013, 07:36:24 PM
Thanks both!  I agree, slower is usually better with cheese.  This is just about ready for wraps and shifting to the regular fridge.  The rind is not too thick.  I know some ripen the entire time in their cave, but I'm thinking of making a cheese tomorrow and I'll need the room in the cave when it's time for that one to move in. 

Oh, and as an aside, I picked up a piece of Tomme de Savoy yesterday.  The rind was very ammoniated, so I cut that off, but the paste was so smooth and had a wonderful flavour with not even a hint of ammonia.  There's a French cheese monger on my way home from work and they have a wonderful selection.  This could be dangerous! Part of me thinks I could steal some of the rind moulds from this, but I think it's probably aged past the use by date for the moulds?  Has anyone tried harvesting from a Tomme?  I've never had a problem with blues or brie/cams, but I've not tried longer aged cheeses.  The rinds go through a series of stages, and all I would be getting is the final stage at best, or all at once fury at worst.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 20, 2013, 12:07:01 AM
It seems like linuxboy advised against it at some time or another. I'd be afraid to chance it. The rind has indeed gone through a lot of modification getting to the retail point. PC from a Cam/Brie and PR from a purchased blue cheese are a couple that have been easily and safely purloined.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 20, 2013, 06:37:19 AM
Thanks Boofer.  That was my recollection too.  Nice to have someone either to confirm, or at least share in the hallucinations! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 22, 2013, 06:30:11 PM
Anyway, got good coverage today (day 23) so wrapped in foil and moved to the regular fridge.  Feels pretty close to ripe now, so will probably try this on the weekend.  :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 27, 2013, 05:20:39 AM
Well, we were at day 28, which is normally fully ripe or very close.  However, as the mould did develop slowly, it looks like this is just on it's own time course.  Coverage is good, the rind not too thick, etc, but as the slice image shows, it's not ripe.  I was a surprised though, as when I pressed on the centre is felt quite soft.  Bit of slip skin at the edge, but that's not surprising as the edge developed mould early and was ripening in while the faces were just bare for ages.  Anyway, the cheese weighs in at 972g, or did before I took the slice out of it.  It will continue to ripen as it's big enogh that the faces provide enough mould to continue the process.  I figure it will be about 2 weeks before it's ready though.  Currently, it has that fresh cheese chaource semi-lactic type of taste to the chalky bit.  So, it's not bad, but it's not brie either!  Getting there though.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on July 27, 2013, 06:55:10 AM
How thick is this, Jeff? Very curious. The mold-ripened technique is elusive to me. Like you, I have felt some that seemed nice and soft when pressed, but disappointingly chalky when opened. We just need patience. You're getting there though. :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: jwalker on July 27, 2013, 03:41:02 PM
How thick is this, Jeff?

-Boofer-

That's what I was wondering , the uncut ones look very thin in the photos , but it looks thicker in the cut piece.

I've had real good luck with Bries , and curiously , the thicker ones seem to ripen faster and more evenly , usually age in the cave for four weeks and then two weeks at 38 degrees in the cold fridge , that's for the two gallon batches which are about 2-2 1/2 inches thick.

I have two one gallon makes about 1-1 1/2 inches thick and they are a little more solid (maybe dried out a little more?) , and don't seem to be ripening much more.

I usually use P/H store bought milk , but in one make I used farm fresh milk , that one has a very strong flavor , I'm not really fond of it , it's sort of like I can taste the pasture the cows were grazing on , my neighbors liked it , so I gave it to them.

I guess it's all what a person is used to , but I will probably use P/H milk for future Bries.
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on July 27, 2013, 07:12:10 PM
It's about 2.5 cm thick (an inch).  The cut one has an angle to it that makes it look thicker.  I'll get it sorted.  I've had really good luck with this milk before (it's creamline), so now it's a matter of replicating that.  I realise, the best result I've had the cheese was about 200g lighter, so I think I'm not expelling enough whey, and the curds are too wet when going in the mould. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on August 09, 2013, 10:56:35 PM
Just an update.  Ripened all the way through now, and gets quite runny at room temp.  Just a slight bitterness around the rind but not unpleasant.  Quite nice actually.  Will try and get a photo next piece, as this one seems to be disappearing fairly quickly.  That's a good sign.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Smurfmacaw on August 09, 2013, 11:42:58 PM
Great job!  I think the problem for hobbyist cheese makers is the inability to exactly duplicate every little thing, so it's hard to determine when exactly a bloomy rind is ripened perfectly by time alone.  I'm sure there are folks that can tell just by touching it the stage of ripeness......  I do really enjoy this type of cheese though just because of the interesting transformations that take place.  Oh yeah, and the cheese tastes really good too.
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: george on August 10, 2013, 10:30:27 AM
I thought cams/bries wouldn't continue to ripen once cut?  How are you achieving this amazing feat, Jeff?  Is it because it's already so thin that it doesn't take much?  Inquiring minds want to know ...  ;)
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on August 10, 2013, 03:01:09 PM
I thought cams/bries wouldn't continue to ripen once cut?  How are you achieving this amazing feat, Jeff?  Is it because it's already so thin that it doesn't take much?  Inquiring minds want to know ...  ;)
Hello, george! How've you been?  :)

I saw the post-cut ripening with my Pont l'Eveque (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,11474.msg90317.html#msg90317) so it can happen. True, not in the exact same ballpark as Cams/Bries, but rind-ripened nevertheless.

And a cheese to the cheesemeister down there. Good job, Jeff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Spellogue on August 10, 2013, 04:27:28 PM
I thought cams/bries wouldn't continue to ripen once cut?  How are you achieving this amazing feat, Jeff?  Is it because it's already so thin that it doesn't take much?  Inquiring minds want to know ...  ;)

A better way to state or consider this might be to figure that bries/camemberts won't ripen 'properly' once cut. 

The proteolitic action will continue once the cheese is cut, but it will be uneven.  I find that once cut the liquifying layer oozes past the cut edge and escapes to some extent, even under refigeration, and the cheese will slump.    The rind then, at a more advanced stage, is in closer proximity to the firmer portion of the pâté without the full range and amount of enzymes that would have been in the disturbed gooey portion.  (Is there a standard term for that layer of the paste just under the rind?).  The continuity of the cheese's ecosystem will have been disrupted.  The rind's mycillium and substrate will have been disturbed. This not only slows down the process, it introduces a different and less desireable landscape for the microbial action.

All that said as most of us have seen, it's not necessarily the end of the road for an underdeveloped bloomy-rinded cheese that's been cut.  The result of continued ripening will be different, stunted, and perhaps imperfect, but this is an art not a science.  My experiences are mainly with goat bloomies, which in some cases progress rather quickly, but I suppose most cow's milk cheeses will behave quite similarly.
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on August 11, 2013, 05:29:14 AM
The proteolitic action will continue once the cheese is cut, but it will be uneven.  I find that once cut the liquifying layer oozes past the cut edge and escapes to some extent, even under refigeration, and the cheese will slump.    The rind then, at a more advanced stage, is in closer proximity to the firmer portion of the pâté without the full range and amount of enzymes that would have been in the disturbed gooey portion.  (Is there a standard term for that layer of the paste just under the rind?).  The continuity of the cheese's ecosystem will have been disrupted.  The rind's mycillium and substrate will have been disturbed. This not only slows down the process, it introduces a different and less desireable landscape for the microbial action.
Yeah, that about covers what I'm really seeing. ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on August 11, 2013, 06:30:57 PM
I think it also helps that this is 20 cm in diameter, so about 8 inches across.  Cutting a wedge out of one side doesn't disturb most of the cheese so much.  Also, the gooey layer, while it leaks out, seems to slow down the ripening of the inner paste if it develops too quickly (otherwise known as slip skin).  It seems to me, in my limited experience with this type, that draining that off might help recover the process a bit.  Hard to say though, as I never have two of these to compare what happens in a non-cut one. 

Still, to say that they don't continue to ripen is inaccurate.  That it changes how they ripen, however, seems to be more the case.  I'm pretty sure that I need to get more whey out of the curd before moulding though.  I had one turn out near perfection, but comparing my notes I see it weighed quite a bit less.  And, my recollection of the cheese out of the mould was that it was more firm (less moisture) than the subsequent ones.  There's a bliss point I'm missing, but I think I now know where it is.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: george on August 12, 2013, 10:31:14 AM
Hey Boof!  Not too shabby - but I'm wondering if my cheese-making days may be over.  There is waaaaaaayyyy too much critter hair floating around this (new to me) house!  I'll have to keep working on it.

And thanks to all for the answers about the ripening - I should have known that a factoid picked up from the fabulous Cheeseforum.org would include the word "properly" in it.   ;D
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on August 14, 2013, 06:09:52 AM
Hi,

Here's a picture of a slice of this now.  As you can see, it's gotten quite runny, and probably a bit too runny.  Taste is very good though, though the rind is a touch thick (from the slip skin early on).  Still, I'm pleased that the flavour is holding up and it's not getting ammoniated (yet; that will come).  I'm hoping to get this eaten up soon though, or it will go to waste.  Getting there with these bloomies, but not all the way yet.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Boofer on August 14, 2013, 01:13:36 PM
I had a Taleggio (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8395.msg61004.html#msg61004) look like that. It looks good...except for the runniness, of course. :(

Hang in there, Jeff. You'll solve it. When you do, please pass the word to me. ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on August 14, 2013, 06:44:31 PM
Thanks Boofer!  I'm pretty sure the problem is all in the moisture of the curds going into the mould.  I need to get a bit more moisture expelled so the curds firm up a bit more.  The one I made that was not as heavy as the next two, and the extra weight is just water.  I'm sure that's it.  But I've been sure of many things that were wrong before, so only makes will tell.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: Spellogue on August 15, 2013, 02:35:39 AM
Cheese dip, straight out of the rind!  I've had a number of them look like that, one  Colummier in particular comes to mind.   Incredibly tasty though.

That's some nice looking flatbread you're serving with it too.
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on August 15, 2013, 07:06:40 PM
Thanks Spellogue.  Those are just a store bought cracker (the name of which I've forgotten at the moment).  They are very nice with cheese though!  And they work really well to scoop up this stuff.

- Jeff
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: timkrav on November 05, 2013, 06:42:55 AM
Jeff, what size was your form? I wonder how much curd settles to get it to 2.5cm
Title: Re: My 4th Brie
Post by: JeffHamm on November 05, 2013, 07:58:48 PM
Hi timkrav,

It's a "half brie" mould, which is about 20 cm in diameter.  The curds from 5 litres fills it to the brim, then it settles down.  I think some of the books I've got call for 4 litres of milk in this mould, but I've had good results with 5.  Just need to stirr more to get things in the right zone moisture wise.

- Jeff