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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Washed Rind & Smear Ripened => Topic started by: Alpkäserei on December 20, 2012, 10:38:04 PM

Title: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 20, 2012, 10:38:04 PM
A good while back, a few of you requested that I make a thread on the topic of traditional washing, how you go about it, your goals, etc. so that we could all have an asy reference point to refer back to when needed. Along with a few other things I've been asked for (I promised another member a drawing of a curd stirring tool that I still have not done, I still intend to, just this is a busy time) this got pushed aside. Now I have a few moments to sit don and put this all together.

What I present here is the understanding of washed rinds in the Swiss style. Note that nearly all German Swiss cheeses are washed rinds, as are a good deal of the French Swiss cheeses. Aside from a few cheeses mainly from the Jura and Canton Freiburg, nearly all Swiss cheeses fal into the family of recooked cheeses and would be qualified as Hard or semi-hard cheeses.

The basic wash types seen in Switzerland (I use this, because it is what I know. Hopefully it applies just as well to other European cheeses) are salt rubbed, salt water (weaker than brine strength generally) washed, alcohol washed, and herb-rubbed. All of these techniques arise out of the basic desire to create a cheeses surface that will not have mold growth, and perhaps more specifically out of a typically Swiss desire to have everything turn out perfectly every time.

First we need to start out with the principles behind washing.
Why do we wash a cheese?

The idea of a washed rind is to create a cheese surface that will not allow any mold, yeast, or pathogens to grow on its surface. By washing the outside of a cheese, we contribute to a series of chemical changes that over a period of weeks transform the rind into a protective shell that helps to preserve the inside of the wheel and protect it from harm of any sort.
You could liken the process of washing to that of putting on a coat. By adding this outer layer, we allow the cheese to stand up to a variety of conditions that it would not be able to if we left it naked.

So again, the principle here is to wrap the cheese in a protective coating.
Some people do this with a foreign substance, namely wax, or accomplish a similar thing with oil. But what we want here is to turn the cheese itself into a rind.

To do this, we rely on bacteria, namely b. linens, either natural to the environment around us or introduced from some outside source via culture powders, etc. These little bugs will consume the cheese and break down its solids to produce a sort of slimy goo. In German, this is called Schmier. We want to form this smear, and wipe it around and keep it growing. If done properly, a good smear will cover a mulitude of evil ranging from minor rind flaws to inconsistent rh.

now lets look into how.

We will start of with the simplest form of the washed rind, the salt water wash.

To do this, we need to wash the cheese with a solution of salt and water slightly less concentrated than what we would generally call brine. Remember that the salt will build up on the cheese over time.

The basic rules of washing apply here that apply to nearly all forms of washing. Here are the guidelines I use:

1: Wash 1 side of the cheese every day, flipping the cheese over each time so that the newly washed side is facing up, open to the air.
2: Wash the shelf where the cheese sits every time you wash and flip the cheese.
3: Always keep the cheese wet and do not allow it to dry off to the point where it is damp. Mold will not grow on a wet surface, it can't adhere when there is excess moisture. Mold prefers a lightly damp surface.
4: Use the same wash solution as long as you can get away with it. If you do this, you are actually culturing your own b. linens right there in the solution.
5: Do this every day for the first 10 days after the cheese comes out of the brine (if you brined it)

Now a few notes. Some people wash it every other day. But I see that generally those who do wash the entire cheese when they do so. So it comes out the same with my system, any given side of a cheese is washed every other day.

Also, my cheeses are aged and stored in a large room. They have ample opportunity to acquire wild bacteria for rind formation during this time. Many of you age your cheese in small containers in a refrigerator, where they have very limited access to fresh air. This may require you take extra measures to breed wild b. linens or even purchase cultured bacteria to begin the cycle (just mix a small qty of the powder with your wash water before the first washing).
Small container aging, as I see it, also gives mold more opportunities to invade. You might need to be more cautious if you do things this way.

Now lets go into what you should expect to happen.

The first goal is to attain a Schmier. The best way to describe this is as slime. Depending at where your cheese is in the cycle relative to other cheeses, this may be harder or easier to achieve. If you are using fresh, relatively sterile brine and wash then you are starting off with a pretty blank slate, and it may take 2 or 3 days before you start seeing the slime. If you have mature wash and brine that has seen a few cheeses already, then you mgiht even have a significant smear with the second washing.

The first time you wash a cheese, it should just be like wiping a clean bit of cheese (because that's exactly what you are doing) it just gets wet, maybe a little tacky. But with each successive washing, the liquid you rub around should get slimier. If you aren't familiar with it, you may think it is disgusting and feel tempted to wipe it off, thinking it to be some foreign invader. But be assured, this is what you want.

This is a good time to dispel a common misconception. When we talk about washed rind cheeses, the idea comes to mind of kitchen cleansers sterilizing and wiping away all grease and grime, leaving behind a sparkling, shiny surface. This is certainly NOT what we are after. If anything, we are doing the opposite. We wash our cheeses, trying to get them as slimy and nasty as we can manage. The only time you remove anything is if you clearly have a runaway infection of mold, yeast, or some sort of pathogen. To accomplish this, I like for my wash solution to get slimy and nasty, and only consider replacing it if it clearly smells like poison. So ts more like getting out a bucket of grease and rubbing it all over your fine china, so that you can get that nice bacon flavor with everything you eat  ;)

The more we wash the cheese, the slimier it gets. I use a 10 day guideline, and make my cheeses pretty slimy. Also during this time, the cheese should clearly change colors. It might be anywhere from a bright orange to deep red, with shades of golden yellow and warm brown in between. This all depends on what precise strain of b. linens has made its home on your cheese.

Once the smear has formed, the goal of washing is to spread it around, to keep it growing, and to keep it wet so that it can beat out aggressive molds.

Now I will add one thing here. If you don't understand what's going on here, skip this part as it will just add to your hopeless confusion ;). We can make minor adjustments to our washing procedure to get a desired rind character. If we want a really stinky, slimy rind then we might add a lot of culture to the wash water, or if we want a very light rind like Swiss Emmentaler than we might replace our wash solution regularly to keep culturing to a minimum. It's all in what we want to end up with at the end. In general, you can assume that the slimier your rind gets during the first 10 days, the thicker, stronger, and more flavorful it will be when we want to eat it.
I would suggest that for a long term aged cheese (like 1 year or more) you should go for a very heavy smear.

Now lets change things around a little bit, and look at other techniques.

First a variation.
Sometimes, Swiss cheesemakers use dry salt instead of slat water. This is rubbed onto the cheese either one side per day or the whole cheese every other day just like the wash water. The end result will be very similar, aside from a couple of variations.
1. There is no water introduced. The salt will draw moisture out of the cheese itself. This will result in a thicker, harder rind. This will give a rind more typical of Swiss Emmentaler, which is usually salt rubbed.
2. There is no bacteria being cultured in the wash, only what may grow on the cheese. This will result in a very lightly flavored, lightly colored rind. Again, typical of Swiss Emmentaler.

As with all salt in cheesemaking, it is imperative that this be absolutely free of additives of any kind.

So the technique is to take a small amount of salt in your hand, and thoroughly rub it all over the cheese. You start this as soon as the cheese comes out of the brine, so it is still wet. Then the salt will continue to keep the surface wet as you rub it the following days. Keep the same schedule as for washing with solution. You can use bare hands to rub (which are covered with wild b. linens, by the way) or a brush.

Now lets go back to the washing solution. There are countless variation we can add here.

One of the goals in a washed rind cheese is to add a flavor note to the cheese. B linens certainly have a character of their own, but sometimes we like to help them along. To do this, we add something else to the brine. For the Swiss, this is usually wine, but any alcohol will work. Some eastern Swiss use hard cider, and the Germans use ale. This not only will add flavor, but also helps to fight off mold.

Personally I add a little bit of white wine to all of my washes. This will have a slight yellowing or browning affect. You can use red wine or fruit wines as well. One award winning cheese from my ancestral village is washed with red wine, and has a dark, almost black, rind as a result. 


Another variation is to rub the rind with herbs. There are a number of Swiss cheeses that have interesting rinds, coated with a layer of herbs that over time will leach their flavor into the cheese.

There are a number of ways to do this, not all of which I am familiar with and a number of which are secret, but in generally I believe that such a rubbing of herbs should be done once the basic washing is completed and a mute rind has been formed.

That is all for now. I am sure more information will be added as questions arise and so on.
 
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: JeffHamm on December 20, 2012, 11:00:06 PM
Excellent post.  A cheese to you in thanks for this wonderful description.  Very useful.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: margaretsmall on December 21, 2012, 01:35:17 AM
This is fascinating, thank you for taking the time to share with us. Just to clarify - we wash the top and bottom but not the sides?
Margaret
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 21, 2012, 01:47:03 AM
Great post again, Alp.

You mentioned that you use a natural fiber brush for the schmier-ing.  ;)  You also said you just leave it in the brine.  I started using one too and leave it in the cheese container, but it uses metal to secure the bristles.  This metal has started rusting.  I've looked around a bit and haven't found anything different.  Do you have any recommendations?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 21, 2012, 03:21:58 AM
No sorry, the brush is rinsed in the wash, to remove any smear on it. It is then just set on the shelf.

And the form-side (we say, Järbseit, since the form we use is called a Järb) is washed every time you wash the cheese.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tiarella on December 21, 2012, 03:31:19 AM
Andreas, I really like this brush that I have, I'll post a photo.  ....and the square surgical scrub brushes I get here:
http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=10259&cat=2,42551 (http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=10259&cat=2,42551)

The bamboo brush is quite stiff and I use it and then wash and then spray with a thyme oil based sanitizer and leave for at least an hour, or sometimes a day, and then I rinse and then let it dry.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: LoftyNotions on December 21, 2012, 04:32:19 PM
Thanks,    Alpkäserei. A cheese to you for a very helpful post.

Larry
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: AndreasMergner on December 22, 2012, 01:30:01 AM
Thanks Tiarella.  I wondered where you bought those surgical brushes. 

I just happened to find this at the dollar store today.  The bristles are just right in terms of stiffness. 

(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/598485_4522035201702_1215116185_n.jpg)

I couldn't find anywhere online to buy it except at a website where dollar stores can buy in bulk.  I think this might mean that other dollar stores may carry it.

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 24, 2012, 05:37:43 PM
it seems to me that you do want as large a brush as you can when developing a schmier. you want something that can take a good amount of the cream and spread it all around, also that can hold a fair amount of liquid
i perefer a nautural bristle because of how it holds water
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tiarella on December 27, 2012, 12:03:27 AM
Alp,  first of all, I forgot to give you a cheese for such a helpful thread.  I'll do that now.

Also, I have tried to follow your suggestions and have a question.  I made a washed curd cheese and then started rubbing it with the mix of white wine/salt/water that you say is one of the options.  I have a very nice schmier going on it and it is mold free and stays pretty moist by it's self.  I have it in a fairly small box but open it every 2 to 4 days to rub the  rind and introduce fresh air into the box. 

I want to post a photo to show you the rind but I first better explain this strange cheese.  I washed the curd with water colored with beet juice and soaked it in brine with color from yellow onion skins.  The first wash also had some beet juice in it so there is a mix of colors that you will see but some are from the colors in the make, brine and washes, not from microflora.  HOWEVER, some of it is from microflora.

My main question is, what do I do now?  It was made 11/21 so it is now 35 days old.  Do I let the coating dry out at some point?  Do I need to do anything else? 

First photo shows mottled curd right out of the press, second shows brined cheese, third shows cheese tonight.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 27, 2012, 02:40:19 AM
This would depend on how long you want to let the cheese age.

Our practice is to wash daily for 10 days, and then wash  or 2 times weekly for about 3 months. These are for cheeses that are going to age 1 year or more, so we are developing a thick rind.

For a shorter term cheese, maybe after 1 month you can dry it off. When you dry it off really depends on how thick you want the rind to be, and how much flavor you want it to have.

So in general, the more you wash the thicker and stronger flavored the rind.

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tiarella on January 02, 2013, 10:36:35 PM
Alp, thank you for your reply.  So, this cheese is actually 2 months old now, not the 1 month that I thought.  Do you have suggestions for drying it off?  It's in a smallish ripening box and there's not a lot of extra air in there.  I don't want it to dry off too fast obviously by exposing it to room air since it's the dry air season now.  Should I just stop washing it?  Should I open the box for air exchange on a regular basis?  I do have a wine fridge I could put it in but not sure how moist it is in there.  Most of the cheeses in there now are vacuum packed so nothing is giving off moisture.  I could do a bowl of salt water in the wine fridge and let the cheese be "box-less" on there.  Any hints?  I do appreciate your help on this and I have LOVED that this cheese has had NO mold to wipe off!
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tomer1 on January 03, 2013, 10:39:00 AM
You need to get the RH down from 90-95% in the box to about 80%.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tiarella on January 03, 2013, 04:59:17 PM
Thanks, Tomer!  So, do you think that a wine fridge might be about 85% RH?  It is the style that has that cold plate on the back wall and it does condense moisture.  I could put the box in there with the lid turned a bit sideways to allow some air flow and increase that day by day. 
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 03, 2013, 06:30:26 PM
I am personally not an advocate of storing the cheese any higher than 90% during the early washing stage. I prefer around 85% at all times during the life of the cheese. The humidity can actually be kept much lower than this and still be ok. Many Alps store the cheese during this stage in an uncontrolled room (they have no way to control humidity) where the humidity is not always so high. It is fine, as long as the surface of the cheese is kept wet. linens like excessive moisture, which can be either in the form of extreme humidity or a wet surface. I prefer to keep the wet surface route, since it has a reduced risk of mold contamination.

A good rind should be able to dry off without risk of cracking, this is part of the purpose of washing, so that we can condition the rind to the point where it can withstand being dried.


What I would suggest is to get rid of the box, and keep the cheese on a board. Spruce or fir is ideal, but pine is also fine. The cheese needs to be able to breathe, and can't do so in a box.
Our cheeses are all aged on pine shelves in an open room with a circulating fan.

Remember that these cheeses are not as picky with their environment as many others are. Here, technique is more important.

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: hoeklijn on January 03, 2013, 06:38:02 PM
What an excelent post again. Eine Käse für Ihnen, a cheese for you!
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tiarella on January 04, 2013, 03:02:31 AM
Thanks, Alp.  I don't have a dedicated cheese room with fan so I can't give it those things.  I can try the pine board in a wine fridge.  I don't have any rough pine boards but I can put matting under it to help provide a minimum of ventilation.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on January 04, 2013, 04:02:24 AM
O dear, not mats please. Simply place the cheese directly on the wood, and wash the board every time you wash the cheese, that is all.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Tomer1 on January 04, 2013, 08:52:46 AM
I suppose you can continue to use these boards for washed rind cheeses once your ALP cheese is gone, and perhaps you decide to make something alse.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: rosawoodsii on January 12, 2013, 03:45:23 PM
I think I now know why my Muensters are not growing B.linens.  They were wet and tacky, and I left the lid off so they could dry out well before continuing to age in higher humidity.  (Groan...)  I guess I'll just tack this one up to learning experience.  I washed them well this morning and put them in a high humidity location, and maybe they'll recover and grow some smear. 

Alpkäserei, do the sides also get wiped down or only the top and bottom?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on March 09, 2013, 08:28:09 PM
I've been washing this Swiss cheese with Al's water, wine and salt recipe. It keeps getting oranger and oranger. I have it in a ripening box with the lid propped open. If I don't, it will dry out real fast. I am in the phase where it sits at room temperature for eye formation.

It smells incredibly good. I have never washed the rind before, I've always sat it out on the table and wiped it off once a day with cheese cloth dipped in brine, being careful not to wet the cheese because that is what Rickki Carrol's recipe said to do.

Now I am brushing it with a natural bristle brush with the wash every day. It is still moist and tacky every evening with I wash it and the rind is a lot softer than when I just wiped it with cloth. This afternoon I took a nail brush, which has stiffer bristles to it, and scrubbed around on the sides to remove some mold that was starting. You really have to keep a check on the mold when you have this much moister going on.

I don't think that the bright orange color came out well in my picture
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on March 12, 2013, 10:31:07 PM
I've been washing for 8 days now and it's starting to get the slime on it. I did not start washing right out of the brine like I was supposed to, I set it in the cave for a week and let the rind dry out. Oops.

I made Gruyere on Sunday and I started washing it today. I should have washed it yesterday but I didn't read that part until today.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 14, 2013, 04:19:10 PM
apologies to all for my lack of response. i have been very busy cooking maple syrup latel
yes the sides do get washed every day
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on March 19, 2013, 11:37:42 PM
I washed my Swiss for 10 days and then stopped. It has been sitting out for 2 weeks, but no swelling like I usually see to signify the development of the eyes. I have always gotten eyes, but I usually make this in the summer. It's not real warm in the house right now.

The cheese started to develop the soft slime on the top right at 10 days, but I stopped washing it then. Now the rind has turned white in places and it smells wonderful.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Clean break on March 20, 2013, 12:53:32 AM
Quilt,
I washed mine with b. linens in a light brine for ten days also, just stopped washing yesterday and it looks EXACTLY like yours :)  in a couple of days I will start it's warm phase.  We are leaving town for spring break for 2 weeks so it will be baby sat by our friends.  I will put it in a container and have them wash it with brine if they see any mold.  They will keep it in their kitchen or some other warm spot.  I will report back when we get back.
Scott
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on March 20, 2013, 12:58:10 AM
I didn't start washing mine until the warm aging period. I let it sit in the cave and dry for a week, because I had never washed one before. I washed mine with wine, water and salt.

Keep me posted, I'd like to see what it looks like when you get back.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on March 27, 2013, 01:09:23 AM
This is my Gruyere that I have been washing for 7 days. I have a nice white film running down the sides when I wash it now. I think that's what I'm supposed to have.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Clean break on March 27, 2013, 01:49:51 AM
Nice. That sounds right (what the heck do I know?)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 27, 2013, 03:41:33 PM
those cheeses look good. i like to see the white powdery marks develop on the cheese like on you swiss. that is either salt or geo, both of which show up when things are done right
on a 2 year old alpkäse, wild geo will often have developped to the point where the entire cheese is coated with white dust. one cheese i have right now got geo so early that the rind actually wrinkled from it. thats rare, but i dont mind. geo puts a good flavor
are you always dipping your brush into the same brine, and storing it in there? it helps to get the cheese slime in there to help incubate your linens. our wash water gets really smelly afte a few cheeses, its full of bacteria. the salt and alcohol content keep the good bac around and kill the bad
your schmier look good, but maybe a little thin. to solve this i would increase the alcohol content of the wash. the alcohol and wine acids aid in breaking down the surface of the cheese to make the schmier. linens grow in this goo, not as much on the hard surface of the cheese. this goo will also harned and give you a good wax, which helps keep moisture in the cheese. thats why we really put a heavy schmier on cheeses to be aged long
now i need to stop typing, a broken finger makes this all somewhat painful.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: H-K-J on March 27, 2013, 04:04:23 PM
now i need to stop typing, a broken finger makes this all somewhat painful.
OWCH!!!
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on March 28, 2013, 12:57:30 AM
It is a thin schmier, but I was happy to acquire it. I will add more wine and keep going. I appreciate the advice. I'm sorry about your finger! In a world where I work on a computer for a living, the broken finger is really tough.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 28, 2013, 06:01:19 PM
Here are some pics. Thought it might be helpful

(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0386_zps53739c21.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0388_zps77e0d5b2.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0389_zps4910c81e.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0390_zps5e2ec689.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0395_zps31839683.jpg)
(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0398_zps8c45700b.jpg)

(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/IMG_0439_zpsadc40517.jpg)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 28, 2013, 06:18:01 PM
The first cheeses are al during their first 10 day washing. One is still in the brine. The last are in the aging cellar, you can see the white dusting on some that are a few months old already.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shotski on March 29, 2013, 12:13:21 AM
WOW that is awesome  :P The wheel you are holding how many gallons did it take to make and how much does it weigh?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 29, 2013, 12:36:17 AM
Each wheel of cheese represents one day's milk. On this Alp, that is amounting to 130 to 150 Liters depending on how the cows are doing. For a cheese cooked hard like Berner Alpkäse, which most of those shown are (the ones in the last picture with red labels on the side are Mutschli) this will yield maybe 15 kg or so of Cheese.

The form is called a Järb and is of adjustable diameter, so that the height remains constant. Here is how they look:

(http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/IMG_0399_zpse9e1549f.jpg)

Notice also the block upon which the cheese is placed to be washed. The block is smaller than the diameter of the cheese, making it easy to wash the sides, and also letting excess moisture drip off onto the table.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shotski on March 29, 2013, 01:01:32 AM
Very nice setup. What size vat are you using?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 31, 2013, 06:02:55 PM
This is on the Alp Vorder Rüderigs in the Berner Oberland, not in Indiana. The vat or 'Chäs-Chessi' is 150 liters, about 40 gallons
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shotski on April 01, 2013, 12:19:04 AM
This is on the Alp Vorder Rüderigs in the Berner Oberland, not in Indiana.


 
I did wonder about that. My son has been living in Warsaw Poland for 5 years and last year he got married their. My wife and I went over for the wedding. We also did a side trip to Krakow and it was there that the rural farmers from the mountains sold there cheese that inspired me to pursue the cheese making hobby.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on April 05, 2013, 10:40:39 PM
My Swiss that I quit washing a few weeks ago has that nice white powder on it. I'm glad I accomplished something in the right direction. My Gruyere still has the thin smear on it, but I washed it for over 2 weeks so I'm going to quit now and let it go. I turned over the Swiss yesterday and it smells wonderful. You don't get cheese at the store with that kind of an odor to it.

The pictures are great! Thanks for posting
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on April 06, 2013, 04:21:08 AM
You do often continue to wash the cheese once a week for maybe 3 or 4 months, but this isnt entirely necessary if the cheese wont be aged terribly long.

Cheese in Poland? What do Slavs know about cheese?  ;D (joke- please dont hate me. Just remember the Swiss make fun of everybody, especially each other, but especially those that aren't Swiss, it's like the national sport)

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shotski on April 06, 2013, 12:22:51 PM
Cheese in Poland? What do Slavs know about cheese?  ;D (joke- please dont hate me. Just remember the Swiss make fun of everybody, especially each other, but especially those that aren't Swiss, it's like the national sport)

Most of the cheeses were fresh or not aged very long. As for hating you I am Canadian I am to polite to even think of it.  ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: meyerandray on May 29, 2013, 07:36:45 PM
I made a sort of gouda today, which I dry salted as opposed to brine. Would I do my first wash tomorrow? I don't have wood shelves, just the sacrilege plastic racks, in a mini wine fridge, can I try this anyway? I have a wooden plank I could use, I think it is pine, should I try that on top of the fridge shelf? I want to wash with beer, is there a ratio of beer to water to salt? I use a fingernail brush for my cheeses, will that work?  I don't have any b.kinsman to add to my wash, and don't know if I have any naturally present, will this work anyway?
Sorry for all the questions, especially if they should be obvious, or have already been answered.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on June 26, 2013, 11:49:43 PM
Just thought I would throw in a quick shot of my latest Mutschli.  Cognac washed with a nice schmier going on.  This has become one of our favorite cheeses.  Thanks again Alp!! ;D  I'll be smoking the next one.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: H-K-J on June 27, 2013, 01:04:17 AM
WOW NICE CHEESE!!!  :)
I can taste it MMMmmmMMMmmmmMMMMM
and a cheese for your cheese :D
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on June 27, 2013, 02:54:29 AM
Thanks a million H-K-J!! ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Boofer on June 27, 2013, 01:38:05 PM
Just thought I would throw in a quick shot of my latest Mutschli.  Cognac washed with a nice smear going on.  This has become one of our favorite cheeses.  Thanks again Alp!! ;D  I'll be smoking the next one.
Good-looking cheese, Al. A cheese to you for inspiring me to give this style a go. I don't recall...does this age well? Seems like it should.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on June 27, 2013, 02:15:25 PM
Thanks Boofer!! This one is ready at 2 months max.  It's not a long aged cheese but more of a semi-hard fresh one.  Tastes great!!
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Smurfmacaw on June 27, 2013, 06:05:18 PM
Maybe someone can answer my question on washing......I'm trying to get the schmeir, I really am.  Alp says the cheese should stay wet not damp.  Now, while I realize maybe I have some RH issues here in San Diego, normally runs in the 40's with occaisional forays outside of that, I've started using mini-caves inside the dorm fridges I use to age cheese.  I keep any given cheese for washing on a raw wood board (bass wood since I had some avialable and it is pretty neutral) with a glass bowl turned over it.  I know it's fairly humid since there is light condensation on the inside of the bowl yet when I wash the cheese and leave it wet (seriously wet, puddles on top wet), within 12 hours its dry to the touch.  What am I missing here?  Latest cheese is a Tomme that I'm planning a washed/schmeir rind on with PLA.  I'm washing with a light brine that is 1/3 red wine, 2/3 bottled water and a bit of salt.  Where is the wash going?  The cheese isn't getting heavier.  Is the moisture going through the board into the dryer atmosphere of the fridge?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Boofer on June 27, 2013, 11:50:20 PM
It's schmier.

Seems like you do have a low RH problem. Do you have condensation inside the minicave? Your board may be sucking the life out of the cheese too. Can you try swapping out the board for a mat...to test? I believe Alp's washing instructions included washing the board at the same time. Have you been doing that? That would help to increase the available humidity.

Do you have a humidistat to put in the minicave to monitor the RH?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Smurfmacaw on June 28, 2013, 08:43:06 PM
Boofer,

the mini-cave does actually have condensation in it.  Not enough to drip on the cheese, I would prop it open a little more if that was the case.  I'll try without the board and see if that helps a little but I don't think it's the problem since the atmosphere in the mini cave is humid enough to cause condensation.  I do wash the board, basically I use the brush and give it a good wet scrub. 

Humidistat in the fridge measures around 60% RH.  I've got a bowl of water with a microfiber wick in it but that only takes the fridge up to about 20% above ambient.  I'm trying a slightly different wash routine, flip and wash in the morning and then wash the same side again in the evening.  Seems like it's wanting to develop some goo now.  I'll swap out the board  with a draining mat on a plate to see if that makes any difference.

I think the next step will be a small fan to blow on the wick.  If that doesn't work then I'll have to figure out a way to use a ultrasonic humidifier in the fridges.  I can get a combination humidity and temperature controller fairly cheap  but as usual, things aren't that accurate except between 20 and 80% RH.

I ended up vacuum bagging the gruyere I had in the cave even though it has a pretty good rind.  At least this way I don't have to worry about it and it frees up some space on the aging shelves.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on July 01, 2013, 03:58:00 PM
You need a humidity of 85 to 95% for this
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Smurfmacaw on July 01, 2013, 05:09:52 PM
I've pretty much resigned myself to boxes inside the fridges to keep the humidity higher until I can figure out a way to keep the entire fridge at a much higher RH.  On the plus side, I took a core sample of the Mutschlii I made and it is coming along really well.  I think it's going to be a great cheese.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on July 01, 2013, 07:02:55 PM
RH in my cave is 90%.  I keep the temp right around 56F.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Boofer on July 03, 2013, 01:30:13 PM
I've pretty much resigned myself to boxes inside the fridges to keep the humidity higher until I can figure out a way to keep the entire fridge at a much higher RH.
Here's another piece of information (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9530.msg69085.html#msg69085) which may help you. I typically have two or three minicaves in each cave (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9663.msg70765.html#msg70765) when I'm running full-bore.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on July 03, 2013, 05:33:57 PM
RH in my cave is 90%.  I keep the temp right around 56F.

How did you manage that? The refrigerator sucks the humidity out yet you have accomplished perfection. I'd be real interested in details.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on July 03, 2013, 10:26:19 PM
RH in my cave is 90%.  I keep the temp right around 56F.


How did you manage that? The refrigerator sucks the humidity out yet you have accomplished perfection. I'd be real interested in details.


Take a look at the cave I set up in the cave forum (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10288.msg78768.html#msg78768).  Just works out that in Washington State my setup came out perfect.  After a week or two the RH went to 90% and has stayed there.  I think the moisture collecting on the coils in each shelf make that happen.  Way more luck than judgement. LOL
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: John@PC on July 03, 2013, 11:20:24 PM
 
Take a look at the cave I set up in the cave forum (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10288.msg78768.html#msg78768).  Just works out that in Washington State my setup came out perfect.  After a week or two the RH went to 90% and has stayed there.  I think the moisture collecting on the coils in each shelf make that happen.  Way more luck than judgement. LOL
[/quote]

Al, in my opinion you stumbled on the "perfect cave":  cheap, wire shelves (i.e. good air circulation), and direct cool.   My cave is an older frost-free fridge but what I've discovered is (1) frost free is not an advantage for cheese caves because of the exposed cooling coils and air channels that are very hard to sanitize, and (2) direct cool is less expensive to operate and gives more cu. ft. / $.  In other words I would gladly trade my 18 or so cu. ft. fridge for your 6 cu. ft. Igloo in a second.

Just in case anyone is confused:  direct cool refrigerators and freezers have their cooling coils "inside" the inner shell and don't have an air circulation system like frost-free.  I think many wine coolers are direct cool, which is probably why cheese makers don't have problems keeping humidity in the right range with those.  If you thik about it, when you take your 80% RH air and blow it over the "below freezing" coils in a frost-free you're essentially operating a large dehumidifier.  Only solution I've found for my old frost-free is to keep pumping in more humidity than the "system" takes out.

As an interesting aside, if you google "direct cool refrigerator" you will find that almost all are being sold in the east (i.e. India, Indonesia, etc.). 
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on July 04, 2013, 12:42:51 AM
It looks like one of those with the coils in the shelves. I purposely didn't buy one of those because I thought it would not be good. I'm glad it's working out for you. I went to more trouble than that and don't have the right humidity so I use mini caves until I vacuum seal them or wax them.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on July 04, 2013, 02:52:01 PM
Yes, the coils run through each shelf.  I've placed plastic spacers, about 1/2" thick, on each shelf with a bamboo mat and draining mat on top of that.  All three have plenty of air spaces for circulation and they keep the bottom of the cheeses from being exposed directly to the freezer coils.  The freezer is set to it's highest temperature setting, so it doesn't come on full blast every time, and is further controlled by a Johnson Controls external thermostat.  I routinely clean it using a spray bottle filled with a water/chlorine bleach solution. I really like my setup and it's working great for me.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Boofer on July 04, 2013, 05:16:12 PM
Hey, Al, is this possibly your elusive Pont l'Eveque? :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on July 04, 2013, 06:37:17 PM
No Boofer, that one went south.  LOL This is a Tallegio I did.  It is finally creamy throughout and delicious. Although stinky on the outside. LOL :P
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on July 04, 2013, 09:46:08 PM
My theory is that a cheese cave should be so rank, the unitiated lose consciousness when it opened.  :P

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: JeffHamm on July 04, 2013, 09:52:02 PM
My theory is that a cheese cave should be so rank, the unitiated lose consciousness when it opened.  :P

Hey!  I should keep my cheese in my sock drawer!

- Jeff
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on July 04, 2013, 11:34:20 PM
My theory is that a cheese cave should be so rank, the unitiated lose consciousness when it opened.  :P

Trust me, the Tallegio had just that effect.  LOL
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Boofer on July 05, 2013, 05:49:22 AM
My theory is that a cheese cave should be so rank, the unitiated lose consciousness when it opened.  :P
That's kind of the puzzling reaction I got when I opened my caves to my stepdaughter recently. My wife has a similar reaction, but she's become more accustomed to the difference in the air quality. ;)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: John@PC on July 10, 2013, 11:28:51 PM
A couple of questions about the Schmier:  First, I run a small ionizer that prevents surface mold growth in my small fridge cave.  Assuming you want to encourage b linens to grow with the brushing do I need to turn off the ionizer to get best results?  Also, I, like Tiarella like to use coconut oil to coat my hard cheeses.  I just finished brushing all of my hard cheeses (most of which had been oil coated) according to your instructions using a stiff bristle brush and mild salt solution.  The salt solution appeared to emulsify the oil and I got a really nice wet "coating" :).  Any thoughts as to if oiled cheese can be successfully schmier'ed or will the oil prevent the mold growth?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on July 17, 2013, 01:00:09 AM
The oil will prevent the mold growth. It's one way or the other way.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: John@PC on July 17, 2013, 09:59:51 PM
The oil will prevent the mold growth. It's one way or the other way.
I went back and read Alp's original post and now understand the timing of the washing.  I did waste my time washing my "oiled" cheeses  :P, but I do have an new tomme-style in the cave and I'm trying to follow his protocol.  This one I plan not to oil.  Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Smurfmacaw on September 18, 2013, 04:49:17 AM
My theory is that a cheese cave should be so rank, the unitiated lose consciousness when it opened.  :P

I think my Chevrotin has achieved just this effect.  My wife asked what the smell was in the garage.....I may have to take Jeff's tack and start saying "excuse me" when I open the cave every time.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 14, 2013, 12:48:25 AM
The oil will prevent the mold growth. It's one way or the other way.

What am I missing?  I decided to oil a Jack cheese I made a couple of weeks ago and it's growing mold like it's going out of style.  Olive oil, if that makes any difference.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on November 15, 2013, 01:02:42 AM
Let's back up a minute here...

What molds have you got? (Color, smell, etc.)

I do find it a bit odd to have mold growing on oil (only thing that would make sense to me is the oil all absorbed into the cheese) But also, I do not know really just what the effect of oil on mold is. I know its effect on the bacteriae we like on our rinds, it stops them growing. But I don't know with molds, could be some molds can grow on it.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: linuxboy on November 15, 2013, 01:46:42 AM
Yes, they can. Especially if there's a foothold on the underlying substrate.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: rosawoodsii on November 20, 2013, 02:16:04 AM
There's both blue mold and grey mold on the surface of the cheese.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Dar on December 07, 2013, 09:47:19 PM
I have esrom sitting in the press. After it comes out of the (18% solution) brine,  I don't know if the brine wash is a 10% solution or a bacterial brine (my recipe is 1/2 cup water, 1 tsp salt, tiny pinch B linens. ) The recipe  says: After daily turning the first week, wash with "a brine solution" every second day after for 5 weeks. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: mnml on January 22, 2014, 12:02:25 AM
Can whomever please check out my question on a similar subject: cleaning natural-rind cheeses (not washing with B. linens)

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12349.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12349.0.html)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: tnbquilt on February 25, 2014, 01:55:59 AM
I would like to thank Al for this post on washing the cheese. My rinds on my Swiss, and Gruyere have improved a lot since I started following his advice. I have very little trouble with unwanted mold now.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: KatKooks on March 07, 2014, 02:32:04 AM
Thank you, Alpkäserei, very much for this post.  The information has changed how I look at the rind on my cheeses.

I think I gave you a cheese.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: ArnaudForestier on October 14, 2014, 12:14:10 AM
are you always dipping your brush into the same brine, and storing it in there? it helps to get the cheese slime in there to help incubate your linens. our wash water gets really smelly afte a few cheeses, its full of bacteria. the salt and alcohol content keep the good bac around and kill the bad

Alp, when do you actually wash your brush?  I.e., I keep the same brine for a given cheese or batches run close together (I've a 6# hard alpine, and 2 20# Abondance forms...they all get the same brine), and yes, I, too, let it go stinky.  But at some point, I'd presume you risk some things by re-using the same brine, and same brush.  Much like morge, using old rind peelings - I've yet to decide where the cutoff is, in terms of using older cheeses.  So, what's your protocol - when, and how do you wash your horsehair brush, if ever?

Also, I know you like horsehair.  Care to go into this more - why horsehair, as opposed to nylon brushes of approximately the same stiffness (Glengarry's are both currently $99).  And why not say, their surgical brushes?  I've brushes, but as of yet, haven't sunk the money into one of the large, horsehair or nylon brush.  Pav and I have discussed this, and I understand some things now especially on the larger wheels, but curious on why you prefer the horsehair brush.  Many thanks.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: ijsbiertje on November 26, 2014, 09:33:37 PM
Maybe a dumb question but i wonder, does the rind of parmesan gets washed with b. Linens?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 07, 2014, 11:13:51 PM
I like horsehair because of the suppleness, and it's ability to hold more liquid than a plastic fiber brush. Also I like it because I like it.

As for how often to wash the brush, I'd say it is good practice to do say maybe monthly. I'm personally tweaking with this.
On the Alp you would not wash it during the entire Alp season, which is somewhere around 100 days.

You will also be happier with a large, round brush. Really the bigger the better (up to a certain point, of course) bigger brushes will give you a better texture on your cheese. Small brushes don't seem to work as well and tend to leave lines. I don't like lines.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on December 20, 2014, 04:52:27 AM
Here are some pics. Thought it might be helpful

([url]http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff345/HiddenOrder/Chaes/IMG_0386_zps53739c21.jpg[/url])

Alp - How do you get the stamps on some of your cheeses?  We're looking at easier ways of being able to identify which date/batch our cheese are from.  Are these all food grade inks you're using with a custom stamp?

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 21, 2014, 10:10:14 PM
Those are cassein labels, in this case special made for Berner Alpkäse.
Cassein of course is one of the primary cheese proteins. So these are edible labels made of similar substance to the cheese.

Then there are cassein markers to use to write on the sides things like the date, etc. But these will disappear if you wash heavily

I hope to make special 'stamps' which are just reusable numbers I can put into the side of the form when pressing and create an imprint for the date the cheese was made, similar to the stamps used to make imprints on gruyere cheese. This is a mark that does not go away, and looks nice on a finished wheel.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: awakephd on December 22, 2014, 05:14:51 PM
Alp, I'm intrigued by the idea of making a label in the form of an imprint in the cheese. I wonder if it could be as simple as a strip of thin stainless sheet that has the label embossed (or out-bossed) in it -- ??
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on December 22, 2014, 06:23:08 PM
Alp, I'm intrigued by the idea of making a label in the form of an imprint in the cheese. I wonder if it could be as simple as a strip of thin stainless sheet that has the label embossed (or out-bossed) in it -- ??

I'd thought about that as well - I'd planned on finding someone with a CNC machine and having our logo carved into a disc of food grade plastic (similar to the plastic used in the molds) that we'd drop into the bottom of the mold on the final pressing.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on December 23, 2014, 01:11:32 AM
Usually I think you would use some kind of plastic.

You can have positive or negative markers. Positives ate just letter cutouts, and they will of course create an indented symbol in the cheese.
Negatives are solid strips with letter cut out of them. This will make a rectangular indentation with protruding symbols.

Look up on google, 'Greyerzer'
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Stinky on January 08, 2015, 03:53:44 PM
So in your Emmental recipe, you say to wash. What would your guidelines be for doing this so it's not super linensy? Replace the brine more often?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: mnml on January 08, 2015, 10:10:33 PM
So in your Emmental recipe, you say to wash. What would your guidelines be for doing this so it's not super linensy? Replace the brine more often?

For our non cloth-bound, natural-rind, Asiago-style wheels, we use a basic salt solution with no b. linens, and rarely, if ever, get any linens growth. Even in the same room as our washed-rind cheeses, it does not carry over.

...


Well, it certainly has been a long time since I've been on!

Anyway, I was hoping to gain some wisdom about preventing blue mold growth on my non cloth-bound, natural-rind, Asiago-style wheels.

The cheese will come out of the brine (brine pH < 4.0, 100% salinity) and is wiped dry before going into the aging room. First, it sits horizontally on wooden boards for a week or so, and flipped every other day. Then, it is transferred onto wooden racks to support them vertically. They are washed daily with a simple cloth and saltwater (2 Tbs per 500ml) solution for the first few months, but after about one month, the wave of blue hits. To attempt to counter, we have mixed about 125ml of Delvocid (industry-grade anti-microbial) per 500ml water, but the blue mold STILL shows up the next day. I have heard that blue mold enjoys acidic environments, which leads me to believe washing our <4.0 pH brine off the wheel before wiping dry might play a role. But, we also get white (penicillium) fuzz growth in small amounts, even after washing with delvocid.

I have used Delvocid in another cheese plant and it was highly successful. We were also vacuum sealing in that operation, though. As expensive as it is, we are severely disappointed in its results.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on January 08, 2015, 10:28:46 PM
Well, it certainly has been a long time since I've been on!

Anyway, I was hoping to gain some wisdom about preventing blue mold growth on my non cloth-bound, natural-rind, Asiago-style wheels.

The cheese will come out of the brine (brine pH < 4.0, 100% salinity) and is wiped dry before going into the aging room. First, it sits horizontally on wooden boards for a week or so, and flipped every other day. Then, it is transferred onto wooden racks to support them vertically. They are washed daily with a simple cloth and saltwater (2 Tbs per 500ml) solution for the first few months, but after about one month, the wave of blue hits. To attempt to counter, we have mixed about 125ml of Delvocid (industry-grade anti-microbial) per 500ml water, but the blue mold STILL shows up the next day. I have heard that blue mold enjoys acidic environments, which leads me to believe washing our <4.0 pH brine off the wheel before wiping dry might play a role. But, we also get white (penicillium) fuzz growth in small amounts, even after washing with delvocid.

I have used Delvocid in another cheese plant and it was highly successful. We were also vacuum sealing in that operation, though. As expensive as it is, we are severely disappointed in its results.

I don't know what concentration 2Tb/500ml works out to percentage-wise, but from my reading, blue moulds are prevented at salt concentrations of 10%+.  Would a stronger brine work better, perhaps?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: mnml on January 08, 2015, 10:48:04 PM

I don't know what concentration 2Tb/500ml works out to percentage-wise, but from my reading, blue moulds are prevented at salt concentrations of 10%+.  Would a stronger brine work better, perhaps?

If your reading is correct, then I suppose we could try it. Though, Delvocid already has NaCl plus a few other ingredients/salts. Plus, it is an industrial-grade anti-microbial... so unless we have some strain of super blue, it should be working with the concentration that the manufacturer provided.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Stinky on January 08, 2015, 11:56:22 PM
So in your Emmental recipe, you say to wash. What would your guidelines be for doing this so it's not super linensy? Replace the brine more often?

For our non cloth-bound, natural-rind, Asiago-style wheels, we use a basic salt solution with no b. linens, and rarely, if ever, get any linens growth. Even in the same room as our washed-rind cheeses, it does not carry over.

Hmm. I've never added linens, and we get it every time.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 06, 2015, 01:17:13 AM
To be clear, you do in fact have linens growth on those cheeses. It may not be the same kind or in the same concentration but they are there, or else your rind would fail. My methods rely primarily on wild B Linens, with a few other yeasts and bacteriae in there helping it all along.

If you want less BL, you use a really salty wash and you should probably have a higher amount of liquid relative to the amount of cheese being washed

More BL, less liquid.
If this makes sense, the more solution you have the less the dissolved linens by percentage. But we shouldn't just throw our wash out and start new, we need to be passing it along to ensure all our rinds are good.


Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: mnml on February 10, 2015, 09:43:45 PM
Actually you CAN have a proper rind without BL, thanks to salt.  Our alpine style is washed with salt water only, and sometimes develops no BL at all, while in the same room, our heavy BL cheese is rinding up well.

Back on topic: How can we prevent BLUE mold from developing.  Hundreds of pounds of cheese have gradually been added into this aging room since we have started making it again, so the respiration has been increasing. It just makes zero sense how an industrial anti-microbial solution will not stop this blue growth.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on February 10, 2015, 11:52:34 PM
Alp- incredible post. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge of the schmier! I've been really craving this info. A big cheese for you!

Someone who shall not be named instructed me to dry my cheeses after brining and before putting them in the cave . So I've been drying my appenzeller before aging. Currently the cave is too cold - about 46 Fahrenheit and 85-90 rh. I'm not getting much action at all on the rinds - even those that are a month or two old!
So... Can I start your suggested washing regimen this late in the cheeses aging process - given that the rind is dry and clean?

Also if I start washing a cheese that has a little surface mold, will this carry over to the other cheeses I wash with that brine?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 12, 2015, 03:39:29 AM
I challenge you to culture the rind. YOu will find some amount of some strain of BL. Just remember, there are so many that you might not realize it even. But the fact is in order for a rind to form, some chemical change has to happen. Salt will not stop a BL, it will stop molds and yeast. We will salt a rind so that only the things we want will grow. Even a 'clean' rind has been altered chemically due to action of aerobic bacteria. Otherwise, it would dry out and split and have problems.

As for drying a rind,

For Appenzeller it is customary to set the cheeses out of the brine for one or two days before you will wash them. I typically do this on a cheese with a high moisture content -that is, something I cook to less than 115 degrees such as Appenzeller would be when it is made properly. So like a Mutschli I would also dry for a day before I wash it.

you can really start this washing any time. I had some cheeses that were salt washed, and after several months I decided I wanted them to have a little more of a distinct look so I washed with a red wine based solution. I got a good rind, just like your normally would.
You are not getting action because your temperature is much too low. You need to be at 55 degrees.
As a general rule, the 'cleaner' we want our rind -the less action and Schmier- the colder we will make the room. The heavier and gooier we will have a temperature closer to 60 or even a little above.


That's why when we make an Emmentaler, we first form the rind for a week or two in a cold room. If we put it straight into the warm room then the rind will get really gooey and that's not appropriate for this cheese. But some times for something like my Mutschli I want a sticky gooey rind so I'll wash it for a few days at room temperature.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 12, 2015, 03:45:48 AM
The best treatment for mold I have ever found is alcohol.

is it really blue mold you have, or is it 'wild blue' which is actually common yeast. -Does it smell kind of dusty and damp?
I don't know what you are saying about industrial treatment, I don't use anything like that.

But alcohol is toxic to mold, and then on top of that it will also condition the surface of the cheese to have a pH and chemical balance that is not very inviting to molds. I have never had any mold survive more than two washings with alcohol based solutions.

If you really need to kill off an invasion, wash everything down with straight dry white wine.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 12, 2015, 03:56:13 AM
And cognac works great for both mold relief and the "schmier"  All credit for this one goes to Alp for his excellent counseling and personal tutoring through the process of making this excellent Mutschli. ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on February 12, 2015, 12:03:11 PM
Thank you for your thoughtful response ! Everything is finally starting to make sense. :)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on February 12, 2015, 02:24:59 PM
Alp - do you have an idea as to what minimum concentrations of alcohol are necessary to be effective?  We have an abundance of old apple trees on the property, from which I usually make cider in the fall that tests out to about 6-7% alcohol.  Would this be effective enough to manage molds, or do we need something higher like th 12-13% found in wine?

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: awakephd on February 13, 2015, 03:19:42 PM
Uh-oh. I foresee a scenario involving a back-yard still and the revenuers ... :)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on February 13, 2015, 04:48:25 PM
How much wine to put in the brine?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 13, 2015, 04:54:01 PM
I use about four cups to a gallon but others may vary.  With cognac I use a small spray bottle with a 25/75% solution and mist the cheese prior to brushing with a clean paint brush.  To eradicate mold use straight white wine.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Stinky on February 13, 2015, 05:24:37 PM
I keep mine in a tupperware, have maybe three or so cups of water, and sploosh some in. Not too careful about it.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: mnml on February 13, 2015, 10:01:06 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that since this is my job, not home hobby, I am producing a larger amount than most folks on here (I presume).  A little over 200 lb of cheese goes into our aging room every week during this season, so I'm thinking the amount of respiration going on is producing an unstoppable blue.  I mentioned DelvoCid to my bosses after we were having no luck with Natamycin, since I've successfully used DelvoCid at my previous employer, my university's dairy and cheese plant.

Needless to say, we will have to test on a few wheels before going all out on the white wine. Washing our entire room and merchandise with it would be impossibly expensive.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on February 13, 2015, 10:29:50 PM
I think it is worth mentioning this is my job, and I have the befefit of a 5000 year old tradition backing what I say.

Blue is never unstoppable and is always the result of something somewhere being done wrong, when we are talking about washed rinds.
The methods I teach can be backed by millions of pounds of cheese produced in Switzerland each year, where most standards forbid the use of any chemical treatments and use only simple salt or wine based brine.

White wine can be had for dirt cheap. $3 a bottle for low end stuff, and then you dillute it 1:3 with water and add salt. I don't see where this would be a major expense compared to chemicals?
Since you probably have a mold haven some where anyway...

It is good practice to completely wash your aging room yearly.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 13, 2015, 10:31:53 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that since this is my job, not home hobby, I am producing a larger amount than most folks on here (I presume).  A little over 200 lb of cheese goes into our aging room every week during this season, so I'm thinking the amount of respiration going on is producing an unstoppable blue.  I mentioned DelvoCid to my bosses after we were having no luck with Natamycin, since I've successfully used DelvoCid at my previous employer, my university's dairy and cheese plant.

Needless to say, we will have to test on a few wheels before going all out on the white wine. Washing our entire room and merchandise with it would be impossibly expensive.

Go to Trader Joe's.  Robert Shaw white wine is $2.99 a bottle!! LOL  ;D
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on February 14, 2015, 02:31:45 PM
I'm using cheap boxed wine . That way it doesn't go bad it's in a air tight bag.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2015, 04:07:06 PM
I'm using cheap boxed wine . That way it doesn't go bad it's in a air tight bag.

Franzio Crisp White is the best!  Oh, did I say that out loud?  LOL
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: LoftyNotions on February 14, 2015, 07:41:56 PM
I'm using cheap boxed wine . That way it doesn't go bad it's in a air tight bag.

Franzio Crisp White is the best!  Oh, did I say that out loud?  LOL

Your pain meds must be kicking in. ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 14, 2015, 07:46:38 PM
I wish!!   :-[
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on February 15, 2015, 01:17:18 AM
I bought the "Rhine" flavor of Franzia - thought it would go better with the appenzeller than the Chardonnay option ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 15, 2015, 01:21:52 AM
Yeah, Chardonnay sucks.  The Crisp White is very neutral which is why I recommended it.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shotski on February 16, 2015, 10:54:55 PM
Chardonnay is really good for basting turkey
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 16, 2015, 11:17:27 PM
Crisp White is really good for basting Al. LOL ::)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on February 19, 2015, 05:26:05 PM
Questions !
1. Between washing a I'm having a small amount of what seems to be geo mold growth. Can I just wash that into the cheese with my brine?
2. Will washing a cheese with a small amount of blue mold spread the mold all over the cheese?
3. How quickly should the cheese be drying off after washing? My cheese cave is around 85rh
4. I've noticed that the cheeses I am washing are getting the annoying and nameless brown spotty mold. Why? Does this happen to others? It makes me sad :(

Any replies to any of these loaded questions will be well received ! Thanks!!
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on February 19, 2015, 05:41:38 PM
If you wash once with straight wine it should kill any mold growth.  After that wash with the wine/brine solution and the schmier will develop including the geo which will help form the rind.  You can brush that into any cracks that may open and seal them up tight.  You can see in this first picture some small cracks that came up on the Mutschli I did, with Alp's assistance.  After washing though you can see the surface is completely sealed in the second picture.  The brown spots can be removed with a small brush, toothbrush size, prior to washing and the schmier will fill in any small dips that may develop. I washed this one daily for a week and then twice a week.  It dried out between washings.  I know I keep posting these but they are the best example of washing I have.  Hope this answers your questions. ;)
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on February 20, 2015, 12:30:17 AM
That's a nice looking cheese, Al.  Have you cut into it yet?  What sort of thickness of rind were you able to develop through your washing regime?  How long did you age it for?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shaneb on March 04, 2015, 07:13:08 AM
Thanks for all of the great information in this thread. Earlier on it was suggested that b. linens could be added to the brine washing mix. I have some in the freezer at the moment. Is it worth my while adding some or are wild b. linens preferred? If so, how much should I add?

Thanks.

Shane
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: awakephd on March 04, 2015, 09:16:42 PM
With regard to wild b. Linens ...

I had a momentary vision of music blaring as a DVD opens with the title ...

GERMS GONE WILD!

Okay, clearly I have not had enough sleep -- the filters are not working properly ...
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on March 04, 2015, 09:23:43 PM
That's a nice looking cheese, Al.  Have you cut into it yet?  What sort of thickness of rind were you able to develop through your washing regime?  How long did you age it for?

This cheese was cut at 60 days.  It's a 6 pound Mutschli which is the reason for the short aging.  This picture clearly shows the rind development when it was cut.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on March 04, 2015, 09:25:41 PM
This cheese was cut at 60 days.  It's a 6 pound Mutschli which is the reason for the short aging.  This picture clearly shows the rind development when it was cut.

Beauty!  Thanks for posting that, Al!
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: LoftyNotions on March 05, 2015, 12:09:18 AM
Thanks for all of the great information in this thread. Earlier on it was suggested that b. linens could be added to the brine washing mix. I have some in the freezer at the moment. Is it worth my while adding some or are wild b. linens preferred? If so, how much should I add?

Thanks.

Shane
Well, Shane, that depends... :)

Any B. linens growing on your cheese will cause some stench. Some are worse than others. If you don't want any stink, just go with occasional wine washes when you get growth you don't want.

Of the recent cheeses I've made, I used SR3 linenson a Tomme and a couple  batches of Reblochon. The Rebs had that nice rotten crab stench :o , and the Tomme, which also has Micodore, is a nice orange, but the smell is heavenly mushroom. I think Micodore won out on that one. My natural linens Gorgonzola, which I just manhandled every time I flipped it, smells sorta like a horse barn. I'm happy with all of them.

Do this one 1 way, and do the next one slightly differently. See which you like better. :)

Larry
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shaneb on March 05, 2015, 01:13:29 AM
Thanks Larry. I will continue and see how I go. It is just hard to imagine that something that smells that bad could ever be edible.  :o I have been a little more aggressive today with my wine brine wash and will see how I go.

Shane
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: OzzieCheese on March 05, 2015, 02:37:45 AM
Hey Larry noticed this

Quote
and the Tomme, which also has Micodore, is a nice orange, but the smell is heavenly mushroom


I'm wanting to use this as a rind development for my Caerphilly, but be damnsed if I can get the stuff.  Where to you get yours from ?

Thanks

-- Mal
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on March 05, 2015, 03:12:48 AM
Google it!!  That seems to be the answer to everything these days. LOL Sorry Mal, I couldn't resist. :-X
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shaneb on March 05, 2015, 03:23:59 AM
I think I looked it up once and wasn't available in Australia. Presumably customs would actively block it coming into the country.

Shane
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: LoftyNotions on March 05, 2015, 04:11:22 AM
Hey Larry noticed this



I'm wanting to use this as a rind development for my Caerphilly, but be damnsed if I can get the stuff.  Where to you get yours from ?

Thanks

-- Mal


Well, I spelled it wrong. :) It's Mycodore, and I got it from Artisangeek. (iratherfly or Yoav on this forum).

http://artisangeek.com/danisco-choozit-mycodore-cylindrocaron-fungi/ (http://artisangeek.com/danisco-choozit-mycodore-cylindrocaron-fungi/)

Larry

Edited to add: The orange color was from B. linens. Mycodore is grayish white.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: OzzieCheese on March 05, 2015, 06:18:17 AM
Thanks for that - I'm setting up with Yoav a tthe moment.  !
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Boofer on March 06, 2015, 03:37:59 AM
The Rebs had that nice rotten crab stench :o , and the Tomme, which also has Micodore, is a nice orange, but the smell is heavenly mushroom. I think Micodore won out on that one.
rotten crab stench...   Yeah, I think you've got it! Actually very attractive.  ::)

Last Thursday I duplicated my Tomme #4 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,12985.msg102852.html#msg102852) using mycodore with PLA and Geo 13. Mycodore is one of the miracle workers/magicians.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on March 06, 2015, 02:03:18 PM
Just ordered some, along with some other goodies.  ;D  Maybe my next tallegio won't smell the house up. LOL
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 06, 2015, 06:21:55 PM
Sometimes if you have a strong rotten stench, that is indicative that you need to be keeping your cheese a llittle cooler
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on March 06, 2015, 06:58:43 PM
In the case of the taleggio it's the b linens that cover the entire cheese.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Stinky on March 06, 2015, 07:04:24 PM
In the case of the taleggio it's the b linens that cover the entire cheese.

I think that's what he's trying to say. Linens smells very bad if it is too warm.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on March 06, 2015, 08:38:33 PM
Oh my cave is right at 54° F but they stink at any temperature! LOL
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: shaneb on March 07, 2015, 12:00:03 AM
Sometimes if you have a strong rotten stench, that is indicative that you need to be keeping your cheese a llittle cooler

This is possibly my problem. Our ambient temperature has been on the warm side (up to 25°C max). I was going to use a portable fridge at 20°C, but it was difficult to get the cheese in and out of. The smell was horrendous last night, so I've gone back to a straight wine wash on my Jarlsberg. I do notice an orange tinge on the cheese now.

Shane

Shane
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 07, 2015, 08:07:40 PM
There is a problem with things getting out of control if temperatures are too high. I've encountered this before. The slime get's super slimy and will not tame down, and the cheese has an extremely potent odor that is unpleasant, but really is just the regular smell much stronger.

Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Alpkäserei on March 07, 2015, 08:08:49 PM
So we keep the temperature down so that it is easier to control the rind.
Some times if you want your rinds to be not so strong, you might even lower the temperature to around 50 or even a little lower.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Mermaid on March 11, 2015, 12:25:10 PM
Good to know alp! I was worries my cave was too cold at 51 but I guess it's not so bad. My rinds have significantly improved since reading this thread . Thanks for all your help.

I thought tomme was supposed to be kind of spontaneous rind? I don't add micodore or whatever or GEO. Is my cheese going to be boring?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Al Lewis on March 11, 2015, 01:24:32 PM
Your cheese will be fine.  Adding additional cultures and molds to cheeses can give them certain nuances that improve the taste but they can also ruoin them if you use the wrong ones.  I usually review a number of makes from other folks to see what they have done and what results the got before gambling on adding "other things" to my cheeses.  The Vacherin Mont D'Or was the exception.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: gravity84 on November 03, 2015, 07:40:59 PM
the op mentioned b. linens "natural to the environment around us" but it seems like most everyone relies on cultures.  Any steps in particular if I want to try doing the natural to the environment path and reduce the risk of contaminating with wild stuff I don't want?
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: sprocket on November 03, 2015, 07:47:09 PM
the op mentioned b. linens "natural to the environment around us" but it seems like most everyone relies on cultures.  Any steps in particular if I want to try doing the natural to the environment path and reduce the risk of contaminating with wild stuff I don't want?

For some of our cheeses, I'll just wash with a 3% salt solution 2-3 times per week and we'll have an amazing brevi red develop over a couple weeks, no culture required.  B. linens likes salt and it likes moisture, so as long as you're keeping it moist (not dripping wet - I always shake my brush before washing), you'll probably do just fine.
Title: Re: Traditional Washing -The hows, whys, whens, whats, and what not (by request)
Post by: Stinky on November 07, 2015, 03:38:15 PM
the op mentioned b. linens "natural to the environment around us" but it seems like most everyone relies on cultures.  Any steps in particular if I want to try doing the natural to the environment path and reduce the risk of contaminating with wild stuff I don't want?

It'll take a little bit to get it going good. Just do what you have here in the OP. Make a brine with maybe 1/6th wine, and 8-16% salt content. Brush the cheese with it every day, and then less often based off the schedule Alp outlines. It may not show up as well the first few cheeses, but it'll get going soon enough.