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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Cheddared (Normally Stacked & Milled) => Topic started by: vogironface on November 15, 2009, 03:53:38 PM
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Yesterday I finished a batch of cheddar. I used the cheddaring method of preparing the curds. I have been trying to learn from some of the threads here about PH readings during the process. Not having a PH meter I used litmus paper from my local home brew store. This is terribly inaccurate, but the best I could do. I suspect that the acid dropped to low, but your thoughts would be appreciated.
PH at the end of cooking was 6.2
PH after curd was drained and just before cheddaring was 6
PH just before milling was 5.2
PH after removing from the hoop was 5, though this reading is nearing the lower edge of the paper I used so it may not be right.
What is the most critical reading, is it the PH just before salting?
Also, at what PH does the cheese become dry and crumbly?
As an aside, I was amazed how quickly the ph dropped once it started to move. I think you really have to watch it closely. Some of Wayne's posts would indicate as much as well.
Thanks everyone.
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I don't use a pH meter as often as I should. It seems to me the most critical step has been the acid development level before draining the whey to ensure good moisture and texture. Other steps can be corrected for but once the whey is removed there's no room for correction.
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two two most critical issues are pH at drain and pH at salting for cheddar, and actually, for most cheeses. Draining pH should be 6.0- 6.1 for cheddar. Yours was too low, that means texture will be more crumbly. Second pH at salting should be 5.4-5.5. 5.6 is on the high range, typically the target is right at 5.4. It really makes a big difference to be even .1 off.
dry and crumbly cheese can be the result of multiple aspects. ph at whey drain is the big one. Overworking the curd, amount of rennet, ph at salting, ambient room temp, psi of press also all play a role.
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2 questions:
What exactly is overworking the curd?
What effect does the manner and timing of salting have? I mean that if I hit the target ph of 5.4 (this is in the whey not curd, right?) at the end of cheddaring, and I begin salting, is there a lot of variation depending on how I salt? e.g. 3 rounds of adding salt at ten minute increments, 1 big dump of salt and then mix, or other approaches.
I was making jack this past week using my new ph meter and was at the point right before adding cold water to drop the temp after cooking the curd. The ph finally was 6.21 and I started draining the curd and I decided to monitor the ph while I was draining and the bottom just fell out. I was at 5.8 before I could get the whey down to the curd and start adding water. I was not expecting that kind of rapid change either. Are the points that linuxboy pointed out as the most critical also the most difficult to manage? It seems that I need a quicker method of whey draining.
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Farmer,
I have the same questions but here are my thoughts. I know when I stir the curd to much to early they seem to break apart and release fat into the whey. Perhaps this is what linuxboy meant.
If you notice the ph dropping so rapidly every time then perhaps you could begin to remove whey sooner so you hit the target. Could that work or is there not enough change in PH before the drop off to time it right?
Linuxboy, Thanks for the info. I have 1 to add to your list. What effect does the room temp have on the cheese with respect to it being crumbly. I placed my press in the oven with the light on since it snowed here that day. I was afraid it would not knit together. The result was the first 4 hours of the pressing was at about 80 degrees as was the cheddaring. Any idea what this means to the cheese?
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2 questions:
What exactly is overworking the curd?
What effect does the manner and timing of salting have? I mean that if I hit the target ph of 5.4 (this is in the whey not curd, right?) at the end of cheddaring, and I begin salting, is there a lot of variation depending on how I salt? e.g. 3 rounds of adding salt at ten minute increments, 1 big dump of salt and then mix, or other approaches.
I was making jack this past week using my new ph meter and was at the point right before adding cold water to drop the temp after cooking the curd. The ph finally was 6.21 and I started draining the curd and I decided to monitor the ph while I was draining and the bottom just fell out. I was at 5.8 before I could get the whey down to the curd and start adding water. I was not expecting that kind of rapid change either. Are the points that linuxboy pointed out as the most critical also the most difficult to manage? It seems that I need a quicker method of whey draining.
Overworking the curd causes curd shattering. You experienced this when your ice cream mixer was going at too many RPMs. Like Ben said, fat is released and you will get a dryer cheese. Healing curd before stirring helps to minimize shattering.
Manner and timing of salting has to do with hitting a final salt content in the cheese. For example, if you dump all the salt in at once, it will help the curds expel more whey. Well, all that whey will wash away some of the salt and the final internal salt percentage will be less than if you salted at 5-10 min increments. Commercially, incremental saltging is most often used for practical reasons. The curds need to be coated evenly, so a third or half the salt is spread out on top, the curds are tossed with a large pitchfork, which takes 5-10 mins, and then more salt is added. For home application, I suggest the same approach. You want even salt coverage in at least two applications. Let the whey drain after salting, pour it out, toss the curds, and add more salt.
Yes, target pH is of whey at the closest point possible to the curd. Meaning whatever liquid the curd expels. You couldn't accurately measure actual curd ph, anyway. To do that, you'd need to pulverize the curd and use an emulsifier, then measure. If you press the pH meter to the curd, you'd be testing the pH of the whey that the curd expels, vs the whey in the pot. There is a slight difference in that the whey leftover acidifies faster than in the curd.
The interesting pH behavior you experienced with the jack most likely has to do with the water addition or the acidification rate of your starter. Milk has a lot of buffers in it. If you add water, the buffer capacity may be decreased as ions come out of solution (this is less likely), leading to a faster drop. Another possibility is that your starter acidifies faster after it hits a pH of 6 (this is most likely). The way you figure this out is to look at the acidification curves. If you don't have one from your supplier, ask for it, or make one yourself by plotting pH vs time in a cheese. If for a normal, non-washed cheese the acidification is more steady, then you know it was the water that led to the drop.
Just another quick note... you could drain whey earlier than 6.2, but in most cases, it is impossible unless you make the curd very small and heat up quickly. By the time you can drain whey, the pH will likely be 6.1-6.2. If it's less than that, use less starter next time, and hurry up and finish draining :)
Ben, ambient room temp influences knitting in the mold and acidification post drain. Of these, the knitting or lack of it contributes to crumbliness. If the temp is lower, you need more weight or to press for longer for the curds to knit. If your curd was at 80 degrees for knitting and cheddaring, you're doing well. Commercially, the vats are heated while cheddaring takes place.
Ideally for most styles, what you want is to knit the curds well together right away (that initial hour while the curds are hot is crucial) but without using too much weight or the water content will not be the same throughout the cheese, then let the cheese sit for a bit so the remaining lactose can be digested. If there's too much lactose, other bacteria can eat it and the cheese has less preserving capacity.
Phew. long post.
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Thanks. Light is beginning to come on.
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Sheesh Linuxboy!
Just when I thought I was getting a handle on cheddar making you hit me with this! :)
I was perfectly fine until I read that even .1 ph can make a big difference in the outcome of a cheese. That's sort of intimidating.
Even though I now have to re-think everything I'm doing I DO appreciate the information and your thoughtful posts. The amount of information you have is amazing and the fact that you share it is appreciated.
Dave
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I was perfectly fine until I read that even .1 ph can make a big difference in the outcome of a cheese. That's sort of intimidating.
This is why I consistantly say that a pH meter is essential for cheese generally, and cheddar specifically.
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Great info Linux!
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I'm with you Wayne. I didn't realize this for the first 3 years of making cheese but now I would not even attempt a cheddar without one.
Case in point...
Two weeks ago I made a stirred cheddar and was having some serious problems with my meter. I could not get it to stay calibrated and basically ended up going only by recipe times.....
Well since this was a cheese that was made to refine a recipe I opened it this past weekend and it was a pitiful cheese.
The texture was crumbly, open and slightly bitter. I was going to toss it but my wife reminded me that my dad will eat ANY cheese so instead I guess I'll take it to him to try. I just want it out of the house because it ticks me off when I see it.
On the other hand, a week ago I made another attempt at a stirred cheddar. This time I had my meter calibrated correctly (used new solution and re-calibrated mid make), and I also cut this one open this past weekend.
With this cheese I was able to take a very thin slice off of the wedge and could actually fold it completely in half without it breaking.
Of course the taste was pretty much non existent but it had a good mouth feel, although a bit dry for my liking. Thanks to Linuxboy I know that this dryness was due to cooking the curd too quickly so I knew what to do differently on my next batch to make it better.
Well this past weekend I made a new stirred cheddar and hit all of my Ph and cook marks perfectly. In fact I've never had a cheese go any better than this one.
Once again I will cut this one open in a week or two to see what I have.
If I am satisfied (as I was on my last wheel) I will vacuum bag the other wedges and continue aging. I also raised the press pressure a bit to try to get a more closed curd, although after reading the above I probably should have done this earlier in the process than I did.
I've decided that cheddar is the cheese of this season.
It's fun to make and the rewards are high if made correctly.
Besides, I'm already sick of trying to perfect swiss and I haven't even tried one yet this year. :)
There's no doubt that other cheeses will be made this year but cheddar is my focus and it's posts like the above that will help me along the way.
Dave
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Dave, the real truth of why pH is important is even more complex than that. pH or TA is a pointer to what's going on under the surface. The reality is that after the initial curd set because of rennet, there are complex reactions being carried out both at the cell level by bacteria and at a physico-chemical level in the whey and curd. The direct consequence of this is the amount of calcium and phosphate salts and lactose in the whey and in the curd. The whey drainage pH is an easy to measure indicator of the relative loss of lactose, and more importantly the stage of calcium phosphate loss and di to monocalcium paracaseinate conversion.
The level of lactose in the curds determines how much food bacteria have left before they give up and enter a more dormant phase of not replicating but just eating and staying alive. This is important for processes like cheddaring. And the level of calcium, phosphate, and paracaseinate conversion determine a number of things. One, it determines the rate of protein to protein interaction. Or more simply put, how well curds knit together and if they form a more open curd or closed curd (less calcium will produce a more closed curd, all other things being equal). Two, it in part determines the ability of the final cheese to melt and stretch. Three, it determines the moisture "feel"... that is less calcium will feel more "wet", say, like a havarti vs a swiss. Swiss has more calcium, and of course higher whey drain pH.
So it's not exactly 100% correct that a .1 pH difference will make a drastic change. All other things being equal, it usually does, most of the time. :D The important principle here is that the pH change is pointing to the rate of acid production AND how that acid production is affecting the natural buffering properties of milk (namely calcium/phosphate) AND how these two factors are related to the temperature, which influences acid production and rate of whey syneresis, AND the size of the curd/flocculation multiplier.
Oh and interestingly enough, higher calcium cheeses age better.
If you take careful notes and post them alongside the final cheese taste notes, I can usually help you troubleshoot what you can do to achieve a specific cheese profile.
Artisan cheesemaking to me is knowing a few details about the why of what's happening, and then remembering to carefully put them aside and practice the art. There are just so many variables that unless you have real-time monitoring during the make and analysis/standardization of the milk, producing a consistent cheese is a real challenge and art. And if you do standardize the milk and monitor everything, well, that's no fun.
[edit] my brain went faster than my typing, fixed.[/edit]
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Okay, my head just exploded. I thought I had it for one shining moment and then... BOOM! Total mental overload.
Honestly, I figured out quite some time ago that it's the little things that make a big difference in cheese making. Having said that, I'm just now beginning to understand just how much is involved in turning out a quality cheese.
The way I see it, I will still be learning as long as I continue with this hobby (art form) so in my opinion it would be hard to find something that's more challenging and satisfying. In other words, making cheese is right up my alley.
Thanks again for all of the information.
Dave
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With all the cheeses, milk, cutlures, times, temperture combinations etc it will always be a learning experience.
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Since the subject is cheddar ph, I might as well add this quandry to this thread: I made cheddar today and forgot to add rennet to the water, added the water waited 30min and realized no curd was forming, then realized my idiot self never added the rennet, so quickly added rennet. This basically meant 30 extra minutes of culturing time added to the hour already passed. I plowed ahead and then at the end of raising the temp to 102 the ph was already down to 6.0. I figured this was because of the extra time with culture. Soooo..... Do I cook another 45 min now per recipe so that the curds develop properly or just drain now since I already passed the 6.1-6.2 and another 45 min would mean moving even further? went with experience and cooked until curds felt right; about 30 more min. Drained very fast;faster than ever. ph was 5.89. began cheddaring and only cheddared about 1 hr and whey ph was 5.29. Stopped and milled curd quickly and salted for about 10min then began pressing.
Ok did i completely blow it? Is this cheese a disaster? Should I have stayed with recipe or are the ph values the most important factor for producing a decent cheese?
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I checked the ph this morning after overnight pressing and it was 4.8. What is the correct target at this point?
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I think that's right where you need to be. The pH will actually go UP over the next few weeks and months. That's why aging is important.
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Farmer, Sailor is right I think. Post press you should be in the 4.9-5.1 range, with 5.0 being about ideal. You did everything right in trying to hurry up and mill/salt as soon as possible. One other trick you could have used is to raise the temp to 105 and try to do that slightly faster. At that temp, the bacteria become less active and produce less acid. I think the cheese will still be very edible. Did the curds knit together well during cheddaring? And did the milled pieces come together ok in the press? If they did, your texture should be ok.
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How does it get less acidic?
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Wayne I think he means the rate of 'acidity increase' slows; this means that it will stay at whatever it is longer. This is my assumption.
Thanks sailor and linuxboy. I weighed the option of raising the temp higher but my heater will only heat this much milk up at a certain rate and it isn't fast. i thought about adding hot water to the heating tank to speed it up also but just opted for a shorter time before draining. So if I had raised the temp to 104 and held it there for the remaining 45-60 min, it would have slowed the acidity drop while the curd was cooking for that final 45 min, right? So for future reference if my ph is pushing 6.1-6.2 at the end of raising the temp to 102, it is probably a good idea to go on to 104 and hold.
i also thought that the salt would slow the ph drop but it didn't seem to. Was I mistaken in this belief?
Also for future reference, when I am cheddaring, I always need to stop when the ph is 5.3-5.4, right? This is one of those points where the clock is not as important as the ph, I guess unlike the cooking process where both are equally important. (please correct if wrong here)
How does the pressing affect ph or does it? I know the ph is still dropping but I mean does the pressure it is under accelerate or decelerate this or neither? Is there a point when pressing where you see the ph is 4.8 and you stop the pressing and refrigerate or do you just "press on"?
The cheese knitted very well at pressing and the curds made a solid mass very quickly when drained, quicker than usual I think.
Sorry so many questions but this ph meter is really generating a lot of curiousity. :)
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Yes, that's what I meant. If you look at the rate of acid production at the various temps, for most mesophilic strains, the upper limit of what the bacteria tolerate is 105 degrees. But keep in mind it doesn't stop the bacteria, just slows them down a little. If you used too much starter to begin with, it will not make a huge difference... might buy you an extra 10-15 mins of time.
Farmer, if you had raised it to 104, it would not have made a dramatic difference. In your case, you were fighting time. Bacteria and yeast have these peak periods where they are eating and gorging themselves and multiplying as quickly as possible. Because you gave them an extra half hour at a very comfy temperature, they really went crazy and multiplied. Effectively, it's similar to using 1.5x-2x the normal starter amount, especially if you used a buttermilk or active mother culture. I would say raising the temp is a helpful tool if you are trying to buy a little more time, just as you said if you're at 6.1 and the curds aren't quite there yet and are too moist.
With regards to the salt, it actually does slow down the pH. Did you plot pH drop over time? For example, from culture to whey drain is something like 45 minutes for a .4 drop in pH. This rate of change does decrease slightly after salting. But it's not drastic. At least that's been my experience.
Yes, you must mill at 5.4. If you get to 5.3 it's not terrible. You can also mill at closer to 5.5. You're looking for the right texture at milling. The cheese slabs should be solid, flexible, and if you pull on the end, you should be able to pull a string out, or at least a piece that doesn't crumble.
By the time you press, there's not much you can do about pH. You could slow it down a little by cold crashing the press, but then the curds won't knit. At press time, the game is basically over and now it's time to focus on brining (if relevant), drying, affinage, molds, etc. Any remaining lactose will be eaten right away in 12 hours or slower over the next 24 hours if the room is cool. Outcome in the final cheese is about the same. To put it more plainly, the cheese will do what it will do, and let it do its thing. Press so the curds knit.
This cheese should be fine if it knitted well. A lower pH at draining does help a little with knitting (less calcium phosphate in curds means more protein-protein interaction).
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Oh Wayne, I just realized you were asking how a cheese pH increases with aging. It's because of the protein breakdown and the production of all sorts of compounds. Some of them are basic and bind up with the available acid in the cheese. This takes many months, however, unless you're talking about a bloomy rind cheese. In a bloomy rind cheese like a cam, the mold actually eats the lactate acid and releases proteolytic compounds. As time passes, the lactate moves from the inside of the cheese to the outside and keeps feeding the mold, which causes liquification inside the cheese. That's why cams and bries turn gooey, and why their pH is higher. That and a byproduct of proteolysis can be ammonia, which is basic.
Here's one illustration
http://www.ontariocheese.org/images/microbiology_ph.jpg (http://www.ontariocheese.org/images/microbiology_ph.jpg)
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I guess I just thought the journey down the pH path was one-way, at least through pressing.
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I guess I just thought the journey down the pH path was one-way, at least through pressing.
It is, but not as a linear function. The instantaneous rate can be manipulated for short periods of time to deviate from an expected outcome. For example, if you suddenly took the curds and whey and chilled them to 35 degrees. That would influence the rate of decrease.
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After this thread i want to go make another batch before I forget everything. I bought a meso 11 powder pack and used it to make a mother culture the morning of my cheddar making. I think next time I will decrease the time of culturing to about 40 min. and watch for the ph drop of .2; which ever comes first. My brain is hurting after all this learning. :)
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It is, but not as a linear function. The instantaneous rate can be manipulated for short periods of time to deviate from an expected outcome. For example, if you suddenly took the curds and whey and chilled them to 35 degrees. That would influence the rate of decrease.
Ok, that jibes with my understanding. Thank you.
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Farmer - making more cheese is always good when your "brain is hurting". ;)
Obviously, time in any cheese recipe is not to be trusted. Smith, Carroll, Morris, Dixon... They all use different times for the same cheese. These times are based on their experiences and are not wrong per se under THEIR conditions.
The flocculation method eliminates the time variable and takes the guess work out of curd set. While pH readings eliminate most of the time variable for ripening, draining, etc. If I have reliable pH targets, I usually ignore the clock and wait for the proper targets. As Farmer has seen, the pH can change very quickly so a simple time based make can be way off.
Like baking a cake really. The recipe says cook at 325F for 50 minutes OR until a knife comes out clean. They always put that disclaimer in there. ;D If you cook it for the full 50 minutes, it may turn out overcooked and dry.
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I always use this analogy:
One can stop at a stopsign that you know is a exactly 1 mile away, by driving 60mph for exactly 1 min.
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you can look out the winshield.
Which would you rather do?
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Because the pH does eventually go up as proteins break down, aging longer than usual might help "rescue" an otherwise acidic cheese. ?? There can be a HUGE difference between a 60 day and a 90 day cheese because that's when all the enzyme activity really starts kicking in.
Makes you appreciate how old time cheesemakers intuitively knew what was going on with their cheese during a make. Of course doctors actually used to taste urine to detect diabetes. Thank goodness for pH meters. ::)
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I agree with the points about ph being the primary indicator of what is happening but I thought that other things were also happening when you are cooking besides acidification, and these other things also must have time to happen. (Again, could be very wrong) Is the development of the curd exclusively related to ph or at least if ph is right - curd will always be right? You could have a ph target and yet the curd not be right yet, correct? This is what I am trying to understand. If I heat to 102 and the ph is already 6.1, I cannot just skip the period of holding at 102 without an effect on the outcome, so even though ph is a primary indicator I can't just ignore the timing completely in some parts of the process.
Sailor your example of the cake implies that the knife is measuring the only important variable that determines when to take the cake out: Dryness. If the dryness is right there is no other reason to leave it in there. Can we say the same for ph targets at every part of the process?
Now I really have a headache. I just read over my post and it sounds like I need a sedative. Ignore if it doesn't make sense. ??? ;D
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FarmerJd, I think you are completely correct. I added too much culture and too much rennet to a batch of cheddar last week (it was a bad day) and so I had to cut renneting time in half, and cut the cook time by 15 minutes, but kept the heat up during cheddaring to slow down acid development so I didn't cut any time there. The end result was a moist cheddar - much moister than other batches I have made. The curds need time to expel whey and acquire the right texture - correct pH does not guarantee correct moisture level and texture. This is why recipes try to coincide pH targets with the right cooking and cheddaring times to produce the ideal texture and moisture.
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Farmer, those pH targets are assuming that you use the recommended starter amount. pH is preferable as a primary measurement to time because the starter strength and how quickly the acid is produced varies with strains, and milk quality also affects pH. So ideally, you'd use 1.5% bulk starter or the recommended DVI amount and then adjust time based on how pH develops. This is in combination with rennet and curd size as squirrel posted.
If you heat to 102 and the curds are too moist and the pH is already at 6.1, you're using too much starter, or the curds are cut too big, or the stirring was uneven/too slow, or a combination.
Using the cake analogy, if you've missed the whey drain pH target, then you know something is wrong and need to take corrective action. If you hit the whey drain pH and it coincides with the right curd texture and moisture level, then you're well on your way to a good cheese.
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...but I thought that other things were also happening when you are cooking besides acidification, and these other things also must have time to happen.
ABSOLUTELY. Therein lies the Catch 22. Say your pH is dropping too fast. Yes, there are ways that you can control that. As Linuxboy said, heat to 102 much quicker to slow down the bacteria and acidification. BUT, you're right, that comes at a price. Heating too quickly during the cooking phase has it's own consequences. The curds will develop a "skin" too quickly and not expel the right amount of whey. Not exactly what you want with cheddar. As you physicists say "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". ;D
It all starts with the right balance from the moment you start the process. Too much starter or ripen too long, pH drops quickly, and..... there you go heating to 102.
FWIW, that's why I haven't dabbled in mother cultures yet. I'm just not comfortable enough with the entire process to throw in another variable. With a direct set dry culture, I can measure out 1/4 teaspoon and get fairly predictable results. How much mother culture DO I add to get the same results?
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Someone here, (Likespace I think) once said that cheesemaking (cheddar specifically) is all about managing the subtleties. Small changes upfront can make vastly different cheese in the long run.
Sounds like you all are saying the same thing, but with more authority.
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If you hit the whey drain pH and it coincides with the right curd texture and moisture level, then you're well on your way to a good cheese.
I guess this is the summary of the whole thing. Very helpful thread to me. Thanks to everybody who took the time to post.
Since Sailor brought up mother cultures, can I judge how long to let the culture work by the increase in acidity (.1-.2) there or is that another catch 22?
Newton's laws of motion are a cake walk compared to cheesemaking. In fact, Linuxboy sounds like a quantum physics professor when he gets cranked up. ;D
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Wayne, I was the one that made that statement but I admit that at the time it was made sort of "off the cuff".
I'm really just now starting to realize how true that statement is and beginning to understand the importance of managing EVERY aspect of the make at EVERY step.
In fact on the cheddar recipe (I'm still working on), I made a notation at the bottom that reads:
"Remember that EVERY MOVEMENT YOU MAKE will have an effect on the final outcome of this cheese".
Before every cheddar attempt I've made this year I have read and re-read that line.
The bottom line is that I still have a LOT to learn but with each bit of knowledge I appear to be turning out better examples of cheese. Hopefully I'll live long enough to realize the goals that I've set for myself.
Thanks so much for this information. It has really helped to open my eyes.
Dave
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Yes. Just a .1 drop in pH and it's time to rennet. Because the bacteria are going to accelerate as time goes on, you really don't want to ripen any more than that, for any hard cheese, not just cheddar. A bigger drop is a setup for problems later on.
I think the bonus question on the midterm exam is - What is the point of ripening with starter culture in the first place?
The bacteria certainly aren't adding flavor or "aging" the cheese this early in the process. Well... we know that rennet and curd set is more efficient with a little lactic acid present. So a little drop in pH makes sense. But some recipes and cultures generate more of a pH drop than others.
We also know that in the end game, the bacteria will eat up all of the lactose, die, and release enzymes that WILL contribute to aging. OK, so wait a minute. There is only X amount of lactose in the cheese, so won't that naturally limit the number of bacteria that can grow anyway. Say 8 gazillion. So what difference does it make how much starter that we begin with? Why not dump in a LOT of extra starter in the beginning and just watch your pH targets??
Actually I just finished reading a textbook "Fundamentals Of Cheese Science". They recommended several techniques to accelerate cheese aging, but the top 2 were #1- Age at higher temperatures. (They suggested 62-66F with an upper limit of 68F). That's room temperature. and #2- Use higher concentrations of starter culture while carefully monitoring and controlling the pH. Their explanation was that this produces higher enzyme levels quicker, which will lead to faster aging. They insinuated that these techniques are currently being used in commercial cheese making. I believe that Francois said that they age at higher temperatures. He probably can't share info on his starter culture techniques, so we shouldn't ask.
So Newton got a headache. Was that because the apple hit him in the head, or all of the stress from the gears turning in his brain?
OK, I know I've opened a can of worms here. ::)
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I figured this is a good place to show the pics of my first ph meter tested cheddar. I also opened a one month aged cheddar from the waxing and am moving it to the vacuum bags so I threw in a pic of it.
Sailor, I added the rheostat to my motor and it really doesn't like it but it works; sort of. I will use it til it burns up. Pic attached.
Well... we know that rennet and curd set is more efficient with a little lactic acid present. So a little drop in pH makes sense. But some recipes and cultures generate more of a pH drop than others.
Could this be the reason my curd always sets so fast even though I use very little rennet; too much lactic acid present? I am down to 2 tsps for 25 gallons and it still only takes 8-9 minutes for flocculation.
Yea lots of worms here.
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Your curd bag is doing a great job. Nice wrinkle-free wheel.
Why doesn't your motor like the rheostat?
Yes, higher lactic acid can cause faster rennet action. You should not floc in less than 10 minutes. I shoot for 12-15. I would reduce your starter culture and watch the pH.
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I think the bonus question on the midterm exam is - What is the point of ripening with starter culture in the first place?
We also know that in the end game, the bacteria will eat up all of the lactose, die, and release enzymes that WILL contribute to aging. OK, so wait a minute. There is only X amount of lactose in the cheese, so won't that naturally limit the number of bacteria that can grow anyway. Say 8 gazillion. So what difference does it make how much starter that we begin with? Why not dump in a LOT of extra starter in the beginning and just watch your pH targets??
I believe that Francois said that they age at higher temperatures. He probably can't share info on his starter culture techniques, so we shouldn't ask.
Just wanted to comment on a few things.
Ripening is only necessary with DVI culture. And this is more for the physics side of things. It takes time for the culture to rehydrate and be distributed evenly throughout the milk. This takes about 30 minutes. With mother culture or bulk starter, you can add rennet right away. That's one key advantage of bulk starter.
You can't dump a lot of extra starter in the beginning because the whey drain pH is a narrow band, and because it takes 30-60 mins for the curds to expel whey. If you figured out how to expel whey faster, such as for alpine styles that heat to higher temps and cut curds to 1/4", then you could use a lot more starter. But then you'd make a completely different cheese. Also, there's this gradual process of glycolysis, lypolysis, and proteolysis. A LOT of extra starter will change the rate of decomposition.
Yes, there is a certain amount of lactose in the milk, but bacteria do not multiply so well when it is locked up in solid curd. It's possible to have residual lactose in the cheese curd after the cheese is in the press, and this can lead to defects.
Francois has already said he uses bulk culture, and prefers a 1.5%, whereas other cheesemakers like 2%. He has shared that the culture preference depends on the person and one will use a culture for a hard cheese, while another for a bloomy rind cheese. He has also said the plant has custom strains for some styles and culture in the lab.
Farmer, you're using unpasteurized milk, right? If so, it most likely has meso bacteria already. If you're adding even 1.5% starter, it may be too much because of existing bacteria.
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With mother culture or bulk starter, you can add rennet right away. That's one key advantage of bulk starter.
Can you define 'right away'? Are you saying that with my raw milk and bulk culture combination, I should probably only wait five minutes before adding rennet? And does this make the initial ph target drop of .1 a moot point? Or are you saying the ph drop will happen quickly? By the way I should note that I always add 1 quart culture to 24 gallons which by volume is about 1%.
One other tidbit that I am certain has been a factor in my cheese taste is that up until last week I was using a buttermilk culture. When I cultured the new meso 11 powder from Dairy connection it tasted like nothing more than solid milk compared to my buttermilk culture which is very strong. I can't wait to see the difference.
Sailor, my curd bag is the most simplifying idea I have had next to the stirrer. It is so much nicer to just be able to pull it off the cheese and then put it on from the other side rather than fight the cloth. The circle on the bottom needs to be a little bigger than the hoop so that the cloth can stretch over the top of the hoop to hold it for you.
The motor basically stops and starts with the low voltage. It doesn't just run slower. It sounds like it is dying; but it is not getting hot at all and if I tinker with it, i can get it to stir pretty slow. Much nicer outcome this time; no dust hardly at all.
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24 gallons x 8 = 192 pounds
1.5% of that is 2.88 pounds of starter
1% = 1.92 pounds so your quart is slightly less than 1%
I do 4 gallon batches, so
4 x 8 = 32 pounds
1% = .32 pounds or 5.12 ounces
I agree with Linuxboy. Raw milk has native bacteria and changes the equation. I know I use about 1/2 the recommended dosage of DVI with my raw milk. I was acidifying way too quickly before backing off. I would much rather under inoculate than overdo it. I figure in just a couple of days the bacteria are going to multiply to an equilibrium level anyway.
LinuxBoy - I wasn't actually suggesting using a lot of extra starter. Just playing the Devil's advocate for discussion based on what I read about ways to accelerate aging in "Fundamentals Of Cheese Science". ;D In fact, I don't feel comfortable with their suggestion to use more starter. However, I am aging some of my cheeses in "aging boxes" in my unheated garage, which stays around 62-67F all Winter long. I keep my "cave" at 55F, so that is a considerable difference in aging temperature. They suggested that the increased aging temperature could cut aging time in half with no negative effects on texture or flavor. Would be really nice to have the flavor of a 1 year cheddar within 6 months. ::)
Are you then implying that the time for ripening a DVI starter is a moot point? Then why wait for a .1 drop in pH at all? You have me rethinking my hesitance with using a Mother Culture.
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Can you define 'right away'? Are you saying that with my raw milk and bulk culture combination, I should probably only wait five minutes before adding rennet?
Right away as in add bulk culture, stir, then add rennet. When I use it, I do the same thing as when I make yogurt. Take a bowl, ladle in some of the milk, maybe twice the amount of culture, then dump the bulk culture in the bowl, and whisk together so it's more runny, basically temper it in. Then pour it all in the pot. This way I don't worry about there being large chunks of starter in the milk on the bottom and don't need to stir very much.
Waiting for pH drop with bulk culture is a moot point. The only reason to measure it with DVI culture is to make sure the bacteria have rehydrated and are alive and eating food and multiplying. The reason to wait is that you want to start at the same point as you would traditionally with a mother culture, which is already active.
Farmer, it may be a good idea to reduce starter amount even more. This is especially true if you're using milk from the fridge that's 1-2 days old, as that will have more bacteria than same-day milk. If you had a 3-5 hour ripening time, I bet you wouldn't need starter at all.
Sailor, I figured you were posting a hypothetical... I wanted to run with it and try to think through the consequences. I'm not convinced it's possible to accelerate ripening that much. In my cheeses, slower has led to better results.
I encourage you to try a mother culture. You don't even need to worry about multi-generational propagation, just use DVI for each culture batch and don't reuse the culture. Take perhaps 1/10 or 1/8 of the usual amount of DVI (I believe the rate it 1/1000 DVI to liquid by weight, so 1 gram DVI to ~1000 ml milk), and the volume of milk to get you to 1-1.5%, microwave the milk in a canning jar, close it up, then wait for it to cool down, maybe help the process with a cold water bath. Then sprinkle a little of the DVI, seal, shake it up, and let it sit overnight in a warm place for meso, or your dehydrator set to 110 for thermo. Do this Friday evening and Saturday you can start the cheesemake.
This way, you should still get consistent results because your colony sizes should be the same every time (same DVI amount measures on a scale, same ripening temp). It does take a little work, and might not be worth it if you don't have time or are making normal sized 1-2 gal batches. It starts making a lot more sense for large batches because the cost savings add up.
I haven't seen this approach detailed anywhere else, presumably because you can only reliably culture most DVI once (the second time, the bacteria ratio will be different unless you're using a reculturable bulk starter like Abiasa's). Most of the time when people in the industry talk bulk starter vs DVI, they claim you need an expensive lab to do starter propagation because it requires aseptic handling, and DVI is open packet and pour. But I haven't seen the discussion of reculturing DVI for each batch, which is a hybrid approach and requires a lot less equipment. No need to keep mother starters in deep freeze, for example, and aseptic handling is easier because you could use a normal hepa hood and light a few bunsen burners in the working area to kill airborn bugs. Seal the container when you're done, toss in incubator for the night, and make cheese in the morning. Takes maybe $800 in lab equipment and makes the starter cost per pound of cheese somewhere in the 2-5 cent range, which is on par or cheaper than traditional bulk starter, taking fixed costs into account over their depreciable lifespan.
I know some of the best cheese plants culture their own. Rogue creamery for example maintains their custom blue strains in their lab.
Sorry I keep hijacking the thread. Got a little wound up there, like Farmer said :)
[edit]I went through this again and want to correct a slight error. It's a moot point to ripen with bulk culture for cheddar. Because usually after addition, you get the correct pH drop right away due to the acidity of the bulk starter culture. There are many cheeses where you need to ripen past the usual 6.5-6.6 rennetting pH. For example, in a camembert, the milk is ripened longer, and it is also ripened longer in many blue cheeses.
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And every time you get wound up you open another can of worms. ;)
I was planning on continuing using the mother culture to keep from buying powder. I heat a gallon plus one cup of milk to about 185 then cool down to 95, pour into 4 jars and a little plastic container. I then put all four in a cooler with 95 degree water in the bottom and wrap the cooler with a blanket for 6 -8 hrs. I freeze the plastic container for the starter and use the 4 quarts to make four batches over 2 weeks. So... Is this a waste because of probable contamination?
You are right about my milk being cold. At least 6 gallons a day saved back for cheese so I make cheese every 4 - 5 days unless I do something else with it. 6 gallons are fresh and 6 are probably 3 days old. Are the natural meso strains going to be consistent in what they produce or is this rolling the dice?
Wow, what a thread!
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I freeze the plastic container for the starter and use the 4 quarts to make four batches over 2 weeks. So... Is this a waste because of probable contamination?
That should be fine. The biggest sources of contamination are from a container that hasn't been cleaned (you should take the 4 quart containers out from a dishwasher that's been through a sanitize cycle, or bleach, or similar), or from airborne dust particles that are carrying yeast, bacteria, and mold. If you cool to 95, add culture, and immediately seal the container, you should be fine. It's not aseptic, so there's a chance some other bugs will grow, but honestly, you should be ok. Other people say to use a mother culture within a few days, but it will be viable for months (viability does decrease...store as cold as possible without freezing), and if you keep everything clean, the cheese will be fine.
Are the natural meso strains going to be consistent in what they produce or is this rolling the dice?
The strains in a specific geographic area tend to stay they same unless the environment changes drastically. So for example, winter strains may be a little different than spring/summer ones. In terms of rolling the dice, that depends on how clean you keep everything. Do you keep hair trimmed around the udder to minimize hair falling in? Do you sanitize and teat dip? Do you squirt a few times from the end to let the bacteria-heavy milk out? Is there any mold on the straw where she sleeps? Any poop? I don't think you feed silage, but if you did, that can contaminate from the air. And then there's the milk handling... do you milk into a bucket that's already in an ice bath? You separate into covered gallon containers and chill right away, which is very good. Cold air circulating in the fridge helps to bring the temp down.
You could use a clabber starter instead of commercial ones. If everything is clean, it should work just as well, maybe better. When you make clabber, does it taste sweet, perhaps slightly sour, or is it very very sour? Any gas bubbles form? If your clabber is tangy, but also somewhat sweet and creamy, that makes for a great starter. If it smells "off", or is very sour, or the texture is stringy, or there are gas bubbles, then it's contaminated.
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Sailor,
24 gallons x 8 = 192 pounds
1.5% of that is 2.88 pounds of starter
1% = 1.92 pounds so your quart is slightly less than 1%
I think this should say 'slightly more than 1%' since one quart = 2 lbs according to your first line or maybe you meant 1.5%.
Linuxboy, I boil everything before making my culture and I don't open after taking out of cooler until time to use. Does freezing the starter in the plastic cup destroy it? I was really asking if I can keep it going by always using the frozen plastic cup full to make a new batch instead of using the dvi again.
Forget the natural strains. After reading your spec list, it is a wonder I am alive. "Mold on the straw? Any poop?" Please don't mention this around my cow. I don't want her to start complaining about her living conditions. :P I will stick with meso 11.
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Linuxboy, I boil everything before making my culture and I don't open after taking out of cooler until time to use. Does freezing the starter in the plastic cup destroy it? I was really asking if I can keep it going by always using the frozen plastic cup full to make a new batch instead of using the dvi again.
Farmer, freezing doesn't destroy all culture. Some of it dies off, though. I can't say how much because it depends on the speed with which it was frozen and the temp at which it's held. If you freeze very very quickly, the ice crystals are small, and when you slowly defrost, more cells are viable. Freezing slowly or large volumes gives the large ice crystals a chance to form, and this physically ruptures cell membranes. Using a small container also helps.
You should be ok reculturing from the plastic cup. If you want to stay on the safe side, you could reculture 3-5 times, and then make a fresh batch from the powder. Or make up 2-3 plastic cups from the original and use them up.
One detail I was to mention is that when you reculture multi-strain DVI products, future generations will not be identical to the powder in terms of the ratio of the sub components. I'm not sure what ratio of lactis and cremoris is used for Meso 11, but in the lab, the strains are kept separate and then combined according to the internal proprietary recipe. Practically, this means that you will not get a strictly identical cheese with recultured DVI starters. Of course, that doesn't matter much to us because producing exactly identical cheeses is just about impossible at home. It'll still taste good if you reuse the frozen sample and your kids will still eat the cheese :)
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Ahhh... I forgot about the different strains in the meso 11 dvi. That is a very important consideration. I think I will wind up just taking your suggestion and going back to the dvi after a couple of culturings. I guess I could buy the individual strains and then mix them according to the percentages and have a more consistent product. Just a thought for the future when I start my artisan cheese shop. (Nice to dream!) ;D
As far as getting the kids to eat the cheese, if you mess up too often, they get a little skeptical when you say "I have a feeling about this one!" I get a lot of rolling eyes when I say that now. :)