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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: ofer on October 04, 2010, 09:23:45 PM

Title: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 04, 2010, 09:23:45 PM
Hi,
I am new here, and in cheese making in general (just made Labneh, Queso Blanco and Feta so far). First, I must congratulate you on a wonderful forum and boards – I virtually spent all last week just reading threads. Amazing!
I am really keen on making soft ripened lactic acid coagulated cheeses. I read in Peter Dixon's site (and in Wikipedia) that Chabichou and Crottin de Chavignol have "dry, naturally-occurring growth crust", but the recipes I found here (of Alex and Francois, among others) always contain Penicillium candidum which is sprayed on the cheeses or added to the milk, so I am a bit confused… Can I try to make these cheeses without PC or not?
Thanks!  :)
Ofer.

P.S. I hope it is OK to open a new topic for this.
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: DeejayDebi on October 04, 2010, 11:02:30 PM
That depends on where you live and what your "native" conditions are. There are some parts of the world that have naturally occuring bacteria in the air, the grasses the animals eat etc. Here in the US we have to use commercial cutures to reproduce many of these things that are natural over seas.

Sorry I don't know where you are from but my understanding is that even the French cheese makers use p.candidium.
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Alex on October 05, 2010, 06:16:52 AM
Welcome Ofer!
Where from in Israel are you?
If you won't add P.C., it won't be Chabichou and Crottin de Chavignol.
Are you using raw milk?
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 05, 2010, 09:26:19 AM
Thanks, DeejayDebi! Toda, Alex!
Debi – I live in Israel, so I guess it's similar to the US in respect to lack of bacteria in the air.
Alex – I'm from Tel-Aviv. Till now, I didn't use raw milk, but rather pasteurized cow milk (not ultra-pasteurized - TNUVA's 3% milk in a plastic bag – thanks god they still make it). As for goat milk, I still don't know what I'm gonna do… Where do you get your PC?
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: FRANCOIS on October 05, 2010, 09:30:14 AM
You can make these cheeses, as they are done traditionally, without PC.  HOWEVER, they normally use a geo for white mould (like geo13) that is very short lived, these moulds are usually native to the area.  In my opinion, you will get better results by adding PC.
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 05, 2010, 02:44:30 PM
Thank, Francois. I'll just wait till I'll have the P.C. and Geo (making Tzfatit today).
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Alex on October 05, 2010, 02:53:47 PM
Quote from: ofer on October 05, 2010, 09:26:19 AM
Thanks, DeejayDebi! Toda, Alex!
Debi – I live in Israel, so I guess it's similar to the US in respect to lack of bacteria in the air.
Alex – I'm from Tel-Aviv. Till now, I didn't use raw milk, but rather pasteurized cow milk (not ultra-pasteurized - TNUVA's 3% milk in a plastic bag – thanks god they still make it). As for goat milk, I still don't know what I'm gonna do… Where do you get your PC?


Hi Ofer,

I'm in Haifa.
You can buy your ingredients from Hila:
http://www.home-cheese.com/shop/ (http://www.home-cheese.com/shop/)
Ask her where can you get raw cows milk and goats milk.
BTW, what kind of cheeses are you able to make from "that" milk and how?
 
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 05, 2010, 05:04:46 PM
Hi Alex,
I plan to visit Hila in Nehalim soon and get supplies.
I read in other threads that you are skeptical about "that" milk, and probably with good reasons... I did make Queso Blanco and Feta, quite successfully, and today I am trying to make Tzfatit - I can probably report tomorrow about it...  :)
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Mondequay on October 05, 2010, 08:49:55 PM
Ofer, it will be interesting if you can make Tzfatit with "that" milk. Some of us have tried with no success. Now that you mention it, I think I'll go whip up a Tzfatit too!
Christine
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Alex on October 06, 2010, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: ofer on October 05, 2010, 05:04:46 PM
Hi Alex,
I plan to visit Hila in Nehalim soon and get supplies.
I read in other threads that you are skeptical about "that" milk, and probably with good reasons... I did make Queso Blanco and Feta, quite successfully, and today I am trying to make Tzfatit - I can probably report tomorrow about it...  :)

The only cheese I've made with success, was heating the mikk and adding vinegar. I couldn't have a good clean break when making Tzfatit. Do you alter the milk in some way or just follow the  the recipe?
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Alex on October 06, 2010, 06:23:29 AM
Quote from: Mondequay on October 05, 2010, 08:49:55 PM
Ofer, it will be interesting if you can make Tzfatit with "that" milk. Some of us have tried with no success. Now that you mention it, I think I'll go whip up a Tzfatit too!
Christine

"That" milk is not UHT, but it is homogenized and that's the catch.
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 06, 2010, 09:42:26 AM
Hi Alex and Mondequay!
I made the Tzfatit yesterday, following Alex's recipe from here:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4515.msg34772.html#msg34772 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4515.msg34772.html#msg34772)
Things I did differently:
1. I used store bought pasteurized homogenized milk (3% - not UHT).
2. Since it is already pasteurized, I didn't heat it to 74 degrees.
3. I didn't use CaCl (simply because I still don't have any).
4. After salting I added Nigella Seeds, and inside the molds - chives, and in one mold - sumac.
5. I used "odd" molds. The first is a straw basket, and the second a small soft cheese cup, in which I made holes with a heated fork.
6. Drained it 6 hours outside, and another 8 hours inside the refrigerator.

I think all went well. Tastes very good, and with the right texture, I believe. I waited 2 hours before flipping once. I am attaching some pics. The only problem I see now is that my basket was too wide, so the cheese came out too flat, and the opposite might be said on my home-made mold...

(http://)
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Alex on October 06, 2010, 10:27:27 AM
I salute you! You must be a magician. Even without CaCl?
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Mondequay on October 06, 2010, 11:55:46 AM
If not magic, then just that all pasteurized homogenized milk is not created equal. Well, the milk may be CREATED equal just not treated equal! When I made Tzfatit I used a past/homo milk that I've used to make many other cheeses with success but just barely made a salvageable Tzfatit. Ofer, you rule!
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Alex on October 06, 2010, 12:36:15 PM
Mondequay, the point is that Ofer and me are using exactly the same milk, because there is only one manufacturer for this type of milk.
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 06, 2010, 03:01:56 PM
Well, probably the best term for it would be "beginner's luck"...  :)
Thanks, Alex and Mondequay!
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: ofer on October 06, 2010, 03:50:15 PM
BTW - I just posted on the "RENNET COAGULATED - Soft Brine Preserved (Aegean Sea)" board some pictures from my first attempt at making Feta, which also used the same milk.
Title: Re: Is PC necessary for Chabichou and Crottin?
Post by: Mondequay on October 06, 2010, 10:01:49 PM
Quote from: Alex on October 06, 2010, 12:36:15 PM
Mondequay, the point is that Ofer and me are using exactly the same milk, because there is only one manufacturer for this type of milk.

Well, the plot thickens! It's hard for me to imagine only one manufacturer as I have so many to choose from, most not very good though. I guess I will agree with Ofer's beginner's luck theory.
Christine