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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: Baby Chee on September 08, 2009, 07:45:45 PM
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So today, my fifth day of cheese making, I switched from Gouda to Camembert. It's a wild ride that isn't going so well. Maybe any of you can give me some advice.
I had made my own PVC molds and they were awful. When I ladeled the curds in, everything went well, but around 4" high into the 8" molds (4" dia. PVC pipes) the whey was breaking down and squirting from the holes! ??? It was such a shameful mess that I ran to the garage, cut up an old, plastic, UTZ pretzel container, washed thoroughly, and used it for my mold over a sushi mat on a drying rack over a pot...
(http://cityofclifford.com/Cam1.jpg)
There is a plate with a 5lb. weight on top to keep the mold down on the mat.
It's been draining nicely, but I lost probably 30-50% of my curds. The resulting wheel will be a whopping 10" diameter.
(http://cityofclifford.com/Cam2.jpg)
Seems good so far, about 3 hours later. The drainage is purely whey without any curd seeping out.
The molds are here:
(http://cityofclifford.com/Molds.jpg)
Perhaps the holes are too big? Anyone have any suggestions? I can use these for stilton, I think.
Maybe my curds were still too loose? I waited 2.5 hours and had a pretty clean break.
Hopefully my Camembert can age well and isn't infected. I'll flip the mold soon and then flip before bed and flip in the morning if the cheese is still too soft. Between the two photos were 2 hours, so it drained pretty fast I think.
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Are you using cheesecloth are just putting the curds straight into your molds? (NOT a good idea)
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I thought with Cam/Brie you use no cheesecloth so you can flip every couple hours. Seems like the reason behind ladeling the curds in big pieces to the molds.
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The moulds that I use for making Brie have numerous tiny holes over the entire mould. Maybe your curds had not set properly as I can scoop large spoon size curds. Just wondering.
Sailor, should cheese cloth be used, as I too have never used it for Brie/Cam?
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I use cheesecloth. I don't really see a downside to that. I asked because from the photos, it looks like the holes are too big, and there's not enough of them. More tiny holes would help equalize the pressure on the walls of the mold.
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My curds definitely scooped nice and solid and large. Maybe they didn't set right, because they broke up when enough weight was added on top. I also wonder if maybe an 8" mold is too high, while some recipes merely say 4" high molds.
If I had 4" high molds it would have worked, I think. Because it failed in those molds I jumped quick to a quick solution, which doesn't seem bad, but I did waste a lot of good curd. I could have had 2 10" wheels if I started with the final mold I am using.
I'll have to revisit Camembert sometime and try to do it better/right.
I use cheesecloth. I don't really see a downside to that. I asked because from the photos, it looks like the holes are too big, and there's not enough of them. More tiny holes would help equalize the pressure on the walls of the mold.
The amount of holes is possibly the answer. I will drill up one of those far more (4x more) and see how it goes in a while when I return to the Camembert effort.
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don't put weights on your cam. let it drain naturally. yes, you need more holes, many many more.
I ran some trial batches this morning, funny thing that white liquid is... I had 4 buckets of 4 gallons each and another cheesemaker was running just 1 bucket (these are experimental cheeses so small volumes). We used milk from the same place, same rennet, same rennet amounts, same temps, the only difference was cultures. I used direct set M4001 and he used bulk MM100. He had a firm set after 6 minutes. I had a weak set after 35 minutes. I couldn't believe the difference. His pH dropped much much faster than mine. I had a 0.05 drop after 15 minutes and he was adding rennet on a 0.15 drop over 5 mininutes. I'm going back in to cut, stir and hoop up in an hour.
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Hoping that these photo's show the moulds that I use for Cam/brie.
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YIKES!
Ok, I'll try drilling a LOT more holes in the molds and try again sometime in the future.
If this giant wheel mold produces a good cheese, I might stick with large molds, but I like the idea of the little wheels so I can give away cheeses for gifts.
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Francois, thanks for the news about the cultures. I'll keep those in mind when getting new bacterias.
My Cam is setting naturally. After 6 hours it is already quite rubbery/custardy without weights. Can;t wait to see how it is tomorrow when I begin salting.
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Baby Chee, in this board are a few threads on the Cams I've tried making, in them you can see the Camembert hoops I've been using, they are from DairyConnection.com, not a lot of holes, but a certain size hole.
Also, I've had problem of curd squirting out holes if I try to rush and load too much curd in too early.
Lastly, 8" tall Camembert molds, I've never heard of that, I think they are all around 4" as that way you get a 1.5" Camembert. I think that height is important for this type of cheeses development from the P candidum as all Camemberts are roughly that same height and also it's sister, Brie. Brie's are basically large Camembert wheels but still the same height, must be a reason.
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I hvae not made the camembert but I did my 1st crottin this weekend and it was drooling out the holes too. Seems you loose more than you gain with this stuff. Gloopy mess!
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CH--I was looking at those before I began. ??? I'll definitely have to experiment. The Camembert I did make is looking good, though. It has been flipped a couple times, and I'll turn one more time before bed... then tomorrow morning I can salt it as I make a Havarti with herbs.
Here's a photo of what I have so far....
(http://cityofclifford.com/Cam3.jpg)
(http://cityofclifford.com/Cam4.jpg)
It's firming up well, and it is close to dry-enough for salting. Overnight and it should be good to go.
I converted a homebrew freezer with temp control into a chees cave today, so it will have a great home.
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Looks like there are two of us stealing our brew gear in favor of cheese these days!
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I used to brew a ton. Now all that pH stuff and brew kettles and freezers convert perfectly for cheeses.
Good economy! I wanted to do cheeses for years, but just never took the leap.
What sorts of beers did you do? Do you do?
I rotated through Stout, Light Lager, Kolsch, Lambic, Fruity Ale, Dark Lager. There are still some soda canisters with 5 gallons of hard Lambics in my garage. Those age well, so I figured I should keep them for years.
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I do/did mostly German Altbier, Scottish Ales, Fruited Wheats (Apple, Apricot, Bluebery, Strawberry, Cherry,and Peach), Ginger beer (good for an upset stomach but leaves you craving Chinese food not bad though), Honey Browns, Pale Ales and IPAs. I also have a nice Balatine XX clone and Corona Prone I like in the summer. German Albier is my favorite though! I never did try a Lambic. One day I'll try oe and see if I like it.
Did a few of those nasty Hard Lemonades and Hard Orangeades for my son. And a not to bad Hard Iced Tea I almost liked. He loves the stuff I think it's Awful!
Yeah the gear comes in handy. I also do sausage and deli style lunch meats like salami, pastrami, P&P loaf etc. so it's always in use!
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Wow! Quite a spread. I did Weißen as well (forgot about that).
...wait a minute. This hi-jacking is verboten.
:o
... I like Camembert. ;)
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:D Opps! Sorry! I will get spacey if you let me! I am easily side tracked.
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Well.... it was stiff enough this morning.
So I salted it, got it on a drying mat on a drying rack and put it in the cheese cave under a dome. The rack sits maybe 1/2" off the floor surface of the fridge. And there is a bowl of water in there with a cloth hanging. It's sweaty all over the inside of the cheesecave, so the humidity shouldn't be a big issue.
Cave @ 59ºF presently.
(Though controlled, it's hard to get precise temps.)
I'll flip it daily and look at how the molds are progressing. This morning it already had a nice mild acidic type smell reminiscent of sour cream and a mild yellowing was appearing in the recesses of curd. Not sure if that is normal, but it seemed cheese-like and not like a wild mold.
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This darned cheese is now 10 days old and no white has grown.
I put it in a cave which was cleaned with bleach. Is it possible the bleach residue is circulating in the air moisture and killing the exterior growth?? That's the only thing I can think is happening in there: perhaps I didn't clean out enough bleach when I killed the old molds from beermaking a few weeks back.
Help?
Experience?
Advice?
My other cheeses are going very well.
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I have no experience in soft cheeses hon only in the process of my first two as we speak. Maybe some one with experinece will see this thread.
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Chlorine disapates very fast, I doubt that is your issue. When working with white mold cheese, it's best to think of it as a process of creating environments at the right times to select out what you want to grow. The environment you have the cheese in now is, for some reason, not conducive to p. cand. I used to have some great charts for brie that showed temp/humidity versus days, but lost it in my move. The mold should be fully developed and thick by day 10. I'm guessing that the rind probably can't grow it at this point. Something with the surface pH, salt, moisture or colonized organisms is off. I'd need a good photo to give you a better diagnosis.
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To get the mould growing when I make them, I put the cheese into a sealed container. Raise the cheese up a few inches on a bowl, and put about 1/2 an inch of water on the bottom. There it stays, with regular turning, until the mould has developed. Then I take it out and age.
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I couldn't find the charts I used to have so I spent some time and started making them again. Here is the mold ripened (i.e. Brie) chart. This should answer this recurring question.
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Thanks for the chart.
It's in a fridge at 58-60ºF, with a big bowl of water with it. Alone. The walls are dripping moisture. The Camembert sits on a drying mat on a drying rack 1" off the floor.
--PAUSE--
OK! I refused to look for the past 2 days because it looked like a cheese without any growth. Today is day 12 and it is half formed with white.
HOWEVER, I cringe to say... I tore off the under mold when turning. The mold was layered into the drying mat (sushi mat). Is that ok? Will it recover in a few days?
I think it's just far behind schedule, but the top and sides are easily 75% covered with the white fuzz now. -_-; phew.
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That's a good question I just did the same thing with my crottins. oops!
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º-º; I am so hoping it will regrow with a few extra days at the proper temps. The rest of that disaster Camembert wheel looks in really good shape, but a little late.
Not sure about crottins, but I would assume it is the same basic problem.
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Which is why I hate using bamboo mats. I never seem to be able to turn them without ripping all or some of the surface. It does how ever regrow. I prefer to try and move/lift them each day as it seems to lessen the chance of it sticking.
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Thanks. I'll place it on a tin foil level for the next week until wrapping and fridging.
Recently I purchased some of those plastic knitting grids. Next time I'll use those. I'm not wild about the bamboo either.
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The insides are soooo white!
Do yours have very fine fuzzy stuff that feels almost silky on it? Kind of gross like touching a spider web? I tried to get a picture but I can't get the darn thing to focus on it. I just looks like a marshmellow.
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Yep. Actually, I like that white fuzzy outside. It's neeto. I'm just sad I ripped off about 30% of that mold, but it appears to be slowly regrowing.
These mold growing cheeses are tricky. The washed curds are so simple!
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I agree with your accessment of the little fuzzys being more difficult. I sure hope I like them better than the store bought ones.
Seem to me I heard the soft cheeses were supposed to be easier. So far I don't agree!
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Fresh Chevre is easy - not doubt about that, so that is what someone might have meant when they said soft cheeses are easy.
But the mold ripened cheeses are all a challenge and require attention to detail in making and exactly the right ripening conditions.
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Yeah, my hard pressed washed curds are all doing awesome. The moldies are in hell. One is doing well enough for now and the other turned into a couple 2 lb. sacks of rotting garbage reminiscent of a stroll on the seaside when the dead flesh has washed up.
The camembert disaster is regrowing the white mold at the moment and should be in great shape within a week.
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(http://cityofclifford.com/Cambloom.jpg)
THERE--tonight's growth is almost over the whole thing, so in another day it should be about complete. There's a strange discoloration on the lower left and I'm not sure what it is, but it is on the cheese body and being overgrown by white. That's the only troublesome problem now.
When I can move it, I'll get that moldy mat out of there. That cheese cave is taken over by the penicillium.
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Kind of reminds me of little polar bears that light downy fuzz.
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That's why it isn't so repulsive to me: it's cuddly.
Plus, the white somehow lures me into a belief that it is sanitary.
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but it feels like a spider web just not sticky
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I drilled about 30 times more holes in those molds, cut a few in half, and they worked perfectly today. My second batch is going strong at the moment, all problems of the first Camemberts are now corrected.
Assuming the second batch grows mold well, I'll be swimming in Camembert in 7 weeks, or 9 weeks, or later if I want runny Cam.
The knitting grids I use now, which are super cheap and can be purchased at Michael's for $.69 for a square foot or more, are far better than the bamboo matting.
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Do you have a pic of your "knitting grids"? I am an avid knitter and have never heard of them. Do you mean the plastic grids needle point people use?
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There are several of us that use the needlepoint grids. Really cheap and they cut easily to any shape you need.
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I guess you can sterilize them too?
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I wash them with a brush and soak the in sanitizer. Never tried boiling them they might melt.