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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => INGREDIENTS - Coagulants & Coagulation Aids => Topic started by: Wateetons on February 16, 2009, 01:41:40 AM

Title: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Wateetons on February 16, 2009, 01:41:40 AM
Friends,
I enjoy using grocerystore or household products as substitutes for 'official' cheese/sausage making ingredients. For example: gipsum for making tofu, buttermilk/yoghurt for acidifying milk (and probably even sausage), rind of a storebought brie for making camembert, a piece of old sausage to acidify a new one.
My question: is there something that can be used as a substitute for Cacl2, or alternatively, can Cacl2 be found elsewhere than the cheesemakersstore?   
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Cartierusm on February 16, 2009, 03:50:59 AM
Yes, all home brew or wine making shops will carry CaCl2. If you're concerned with it as a natural ingredient, it's all natural, I mean it is a chemical but water is a chemical.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Wateetons on February 17, 2009, 12:13:06 AM
Thanks. It's not so much the 'chemical aspect' that I try to get around, and I don't mind going to the winemakers shop. Instead, for me it's rather the joy of trying to find some common product or procedure to do pretty much the same. Maybe there's none, than that's too bad, no harm done. If there is: excellent. I know for example that Cacl2 is used in sportsdrinks and to put on the streets to prevent slipperyness in the winter. Wouldn't it be cool if adding some Gatorate to your milk would work equally well to CaCl2? (it propably won't because its too diluted, but you get the idea)

So, any ideas?

(I'm quite aware that this is a somewhat odd question)
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Wayne Harris on February 17, 2009, 11:20:55 AM
I hear that snips and snails and puppy dog tails do the trick. 


oh wait.... thats a different recipe.


;)
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Wateetons on February 17, 2009, 12:14:03 PM
being Dutch I had to google that  :P
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: ThisDameCooks on February 21, 2012, 11:31:41 AM
Alum is a substitute for calcium chloride.  Alum is used to crisp cucumbers during pickling process.  Also, rock salt can be used in place of calcium chloride.  Just googling "calcium chloride substitutes" will get you started.  I too enjoy the challenge of making something with what's at hand.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: T-Bird on March 18, 2012, 06:31:23 PM
Rock salt is SODIUM cloride. All the rock salt I have ever seen, has no calcium ions in it at all.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: tinysar on March 20, 2012, 05:03:08 AM
Yes, you can substitute NaCl for CaCl2 in some applications - eg. NaCl will still work as a (weaker) dessicant, or as an ice salt, or a pickling salt. However, since the point of adding CaCl2 in cheesemaking is to add calcium ions (to aid coagulation), and NaCl doesn't have any of those, it isn't going to be a good substitute for this purpose.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Caseus on April 25, 2012, 10:39:09 PM
The Pickle Crisp jar I have in my cupboard lists ingredients as "Calcium Chloride".   It's formed into little round balls, but the ingredients do not list any binders or other adjuncts.  Does anyone know if it is pure CaCl2? 

How about water content?  To make a 30% solution, 30 grams of CaCl2 and add distilled water to make 100 ml (being careful of heat as the reaction is exothermic), does it need to be anhydrous CaCl2? 

I'm guessing that the cheesemaking suppliers who mix up 30% solutions don't bother to dessicate the granular CaCL2 before mixing it with water, so it probably doesn't matter since what they sell seems to work fine.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: linuxboy on April 25, 2012, 10:55:56 PM
Quote
Does anyone know if it is pure CaCl2? 
Yes, it is.
Quote
does it need to be anhydrous CaCl2? 
No. Using anhydrous will enable you to achieve exact calculations, so you would get 30% instead of 29.8%. Doesn't matter in practice.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: knipknup on April 25, 2012, 11:11:35 PM
The msds for Prestone driveway heat lists it as cacl2. $8 for about 5 pounds. However, it also has trace amounts of potassium chloride and strontium chloride. http://www.pentalonline.com/docs/msds/MSDS_Prestone_DrivewayHeat.pdf (http://www.pentalonline.com/docs/msds/MSDS_Prestone_DrivewayHeat.pdf)

Not sure I'm brave enough to use it in my cheese, but it is probably ok.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: linuxboy on April 25, 2012, 11:16:56 PM
Use USP grade that's suitable as food. Stuff costs like $5/lb for that purity level.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: NRG on December 30, 2012, 05:02:37 PM
I have been busy reading this forum and Gianaclis book. Thanks to Pav for putting me on that book. It is proving very useful.

I hope this post isn't considered thread necromancy. It started quite awhile ago with the most recent addition 8 months ago. BUT, I think, I have something to add.

The OP asked for a common locally available substitute for CaCl2. Specially so they did not have to order the (relatively) expensive solutions from the sellers.

I'll bet many of us have Calcium Citrate pills in our cabinets. I sure do. This form of calcium is more similar to that found naturally in milk. I have also read that there are special bacteria for making diacetyl that eat citrate leaving us with a nice buttery flavor.

So, I ask. Has anyone tried using Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Chloride when using these diacetyl producing bacteria for a hopped up buttery flavor in their cheeses?


Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Al Lewis on December 30, 2012, 05:07:54 PM
There is one great substitute, buy raw farm milk.  Then you won't need it. ;)  I have used calcium carbonate to change the Ph of wine I used to make a Merlot Colby.  Worked fine.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: linuxboy on December 30, 2012, 05:21:10 PM
Quote
So, I ask. Has anyone tried using Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Chloride when using these diacetyl producing bacteria for a hopped up buttery flavor in their cheeses?
Yep, what do want to know?
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: NRG on December 30, 2012, 06:36:27 PM
Well, I guess, what is the conversion from CaCl2 qty to Calcium Citrate Ca3(C6H5O7)2 qty to achieve the equivalent calcium addition?
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: linuxboy on December 30, 2012, 09:29:08 PM
Are you looking for gram equivalent?

it's 1 mole of Ca2+ per mole of CaCl2, and 3 moles per mole of citrate.

But that's not the big issue. Big issue is solubility. in water, cacl2 is highly soluble, and citrate is highly insoluble. Citrate is something like .001 gram per ml, whereas cacl2 is something like .7 grams per ml.

If you're using citrate for leuconostoc food or to increase diacetyl, the potassium or sodium salts are a better choice.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Tomer1 on December 31, 2012, 09:32:13 AM
Quote
Has anyone tried using Calcium Citrate instead of Calcium Chloride

Sodium citrate is often used in commerical buttermilk to increase butteryness.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: nomadgurl on December 31, 2012, 11:25:18 AM
I have run out of the wonderful premixed bottle of calcium chloride in the cheese kit, and picked up a bottle of it at the shop, but it says mix one teaspoon for a 5 gallon bucket.....does anyone know the measurements for making one's own solution? it is the small little balls looking type....dry. Also, I thought calcium citrate was more water soluble than say calcium carbonate, at least that was what a MD recommended for taking, being that our bodies are mostly water...??
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: linuxboy on December 31, 2012, 11:34:38 AM
Please see

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4803 (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4803)

Or add the dry according to anhydrous equivalent. Remember start with .005 - .01% anhydrous.

Water solubility is not the same as solubility in HCl (stomach acid), neither does solubility address bioavailability.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: NRG on December 31, 2012, 03:39:16 PM
I have found the solubility of Calcium Citrate in water is roughly 0.09gm per 100ml or 0.9 grams per liter.

Is this concentration enough to get a proper qty of calcium added along with the desirable citrate?

I really love the concept of amping the butter flavor a bit. Can Calcium Citrate-Malate be utilized for this purpose? It is really soluble.
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: bbracken677 on December 31, 2012, 03:44:14 PM
what is the pH of calcium citrate?
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: Al Lewis on December 31, 2012, 05:20:41 PM
Thanks for the links LB.  Just ordered a pound of the granules.  That should make plenty for my purposes and save me a ton of money. ;D
Title: Re: Calcium Chloride - Substitutes?
Post by: NRG on December 31, 2012, 05:24:58 PM
what is the pH of calcium citrate?


Wikipedia fails to list a pH. Perhaps because the minimal solubility has little effect on the pH of the water solute.

http://fa.kfda.go.kr/standard/egongjeon_standard_view.jsp?SerialNo=209&GoCa=1 (http://fa.kfda.go.kr/standard/egongjeon_standard_view.jsp?SerialNo=209&GoCa=1) a Korean website says:

(2) pH : pH of a solution of 1 g of Calcium Citrate in 20 ml of water is 6.0~8.0.

I take this to mean a saturated solution of Calcium Citrate is near neutral pH. It also seems this is a cursory test to help be sure the material is pure enough to be a food additive. pH outside this range may indicate impurities not suitable for food.