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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Making Cheese, Coagulation => Topic started by: BigCheese on August 12, 2010, 03:00:09 PM

Title: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 12, 2010, 03:00:09 PM
Hello everyone.

I have been away from the site for a week or so and extremely busy, but I have encountered a problem that I knew I should bring here:

We recently got a milking shorthorn to replace one of our Jerseys while she is dry before calving. I have discovereed that even with the shorthorn milk mixed with the Jersey milk, neither my curds or yogurt set properly.

I made mozz and the curds would not set well but I pushed through and got a good final product.

But then I made yogurt with the 185F for 30 min method and got bad results. I made paneer the same way I have 100s of times and got a tofu-like texture. etc..

At first I thought CaCl2, but that would not explain the yogurt not setting properly.

The cow calved 1 month ago and when we got her she only had access to dry pasture of questionable quality. She was actually ina field of abandoned tomato plants the day we came. She previously had mastitis (some 2 years ago). Now she is on a diet of nice, local, organic orchard grassy, fescue, clover hay, alfalfa hay, and a little grains.

Any ideas what I could do so I get proper sets? This will probably be our only milk for ourselves for the next 2 months..

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: tnsven on August 13, 2010, 12:02:28 PM
Oh how lovely! I've bred both my Jerseys to a Milking Shorthorn! They are supposed to do better with lower quality forages (read: less picky)!!

How is the milk filtering? Is it a bit slow? If so, perhaps she has a high somatic cell count? This might affect your set.

Kristin
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 13, 2010, 02:29:52 PM
Thanks Kristin. I thought that might be the case too, so I did a California Mastitis Test and her milk did not show any trace of high somatic cell count.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 14, 2010, 03:19:30 PM
Any other ideas? This is becoming a real problem here. I have 4 gals of milk for Fromage Blanc that still did not set after 1.5 days and 1t Aroma B. Any help wold be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: mtncheesemaker on August 14, 2010, 04:14:56 PM
Have you tried using some CaCl? It might provide you with some information.
I have had way different results making yoghurt from different cows, even the same breed. Have you used different rennets/starters?
Have you tested the pH of the fresh milk?
Sorry I don't know more about your issue.
Keep us posted.






























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Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 14, 2010, 04:25:09 PM
Testing the PH is a good idea, which I have not done. I did not bother with CaCl because my understanding was that if that was the issue, it should only affect rennet coagulation, but I am having problems even with just yogurt and buttermilk.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: mtncheesemaker on August 14, 2010, 05:03:11 PM
We have a state lab here in Colorado that will test milk for a nominal fee. I would suggest you see if you can find such a thing in your state. My vet turned me on to the one here.
I'm just thinking with your cow's history that something might be going on with her.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: MrsKK on August 15, 2010, 12:53:17 PM
How long have you had the cow?  I know that tomato plants are toxic and I'm wondering if that might have something to do with it.  Also, you say she is getting "some grains".  How much?  What kind of body condition is she in?  This cow may need more nutritional support to give good quality milk.  How much milk is she giving?

There are so many variables, from day to day almost, in a cow's production and between cows that it is sometimes tough to get consistent results.  I hope you are able to figure this out soon.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 15, 2010, 01:32:15 PM
We have had her for about a week. She had access to dry pasture, but she was standing in a field of tomato plants when we arrived. I'm sure the change in diet takes a few days or so to be reflected in the milk.

She is getting 5-7 lbs of grain per milking (2 times per day) and giving over 6 gallons. I have not been the one milking so I don't know exactly. She seems quite healthy. Neither under or overweight, alert, active. She has access to a mineral salts and gets flax seed every day. She probably does need a selenium booster, which I will try to do today.

She did have one wound on one teat, but it is scabbed over and does not seem to irritate her during milking or anything. Oh yea, her udder was quite dry when she arrived, but we have been using bag balm steadily.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: linuxboy on August 15, 2010, 04:00:30 PM
Nitai, which mineral mix? My guess would be something diet related. How are the Ca, P, Se, Cu, Co, Zn, etc levels?
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 15, 2010, 05:53:01 PM
It is a Redmond Salt Block, don't know the specifics. Otherwise, I do not know the various levels you mentioned, but I would assume if she is on the same diet as our 3 Jerseys, and they are happy healthy and producing great milk, shouldn't she soon arrive at the same?

I only mentioned selenium because Mendocino soil is selenium deficient, otherwise I don't really know about these things.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: linuxboy on August 15, 2010, 07:50:05 PM
It is a Redmond Salt Block, don't know the specifics. Otherwise, I do not know the various levels you mentioned, but I would assume if she is on the same diet as our 3 Jerseys, and they are happy healthy and producing great milk, shouldn't she soon arrive at the same?

I only mentioned selenium because Mendocino soil is selenium deficient, otherwise I don't really know about these things.

Unless you mix in minerals into the feed, it's hard to say if the deficiency is corrected by free choice intake. Also, breeds differ in the amounts they need. You could also be fighting previous malnutrition and that takes months to stabilize. I'll look up the salt and see where it is in terms of trace elements.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: MrsKK on August 16, 2010, 01:20:21 AM
My cow rarely licks on her salt block, but will take loose salt/mineral mix when it is offered free choice.

As you have only had her for a week, I would say that her body is still correcting from previous deficiency.  The amount of grain you are giving her sounds good, as long as she doesn't lose in body condition.  She should have 3 short ribs showing and should not have a fat pad over her pin bones (the ones on either sides of her tail).  If more ribs than that show, she's probably a bit thin.

I'd give her a bit of time yet to see if her milk changes at all.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: linuxboy on August 16, 2010, 12:33:28 PM
Okay, I looked up the Redmond product. From what I understand, it's just salt? With maybe a few cents of trace elements thrown in? That the one?

Any type of mineral supplement that lists salt as the first ingredient is almost always not worth its salt :). The first ingredient should be some form of calcium (and not a crap source like limestone). All the milk production needs vast amounts of calcium. IIRC, something like .3% of dry intake (DM) per the latest NRC guidance. Phosphorus should be close, something like .2%. Almost to the 2:1 ratio for Ca:P. Good mineral mixes will have chelates not from EDTA, good forms of copper, like from copper oxide, etc. I would start with that and free feed a good loose mix. And if she's not having that, topdress the grain. Look for a horse or livestock mineral or even a goat mineral if there are no good ones at the store. Where do you go for the supplements? Out to the TSC in Ukiah?

Beyond that, your hay and pasture are the foundations of the milk. But your other cow is milking OK, so overall I think you're fighting all the previous malnutrition. Lactation puts so much stress on a cow, you need to make sure that the backbone (Ca, P, other macro elementals) as well as the trace elements are bioavailable.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 16, 2010, 04:18:48 PM
Thanks so much, LB. I am going to get right on this!
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: linuxboy on August 16, 2010, 04:28:03 PM
Great! Don't get me wrong, the Redmond salts are really top notch as far as salt goes. But cows need a lot more than is found naturally even in the best salt. I don't remember what the feed place out in Ft bragg has, the one on 20, and also don't remember what the TSC by the airport or that feed place in Talmage has in Ukiah, but if you let me know brands they carry for mineral mixes, I can tell you which would work. Often I find that regular livestock performance mineral supplements work well. Anyway, let me know, we'll figure this out. Pretty sure it's a nutrition issue.

[edit] Check rainbow ag, too, but I doubt they'd have it. If there's nothing available, you can also go injectable route http://www.multiminglobal.com/usa/ (http://www.multiminglobal.com/usa/)
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: MrsKK on August 16, 2010, 09:32:14 PM
I've been top dressing my cow's feed with kelp.  It is in a dry form and contains all the trace minerals that dairy animals need.  Since my cow is finicky about eating it when offered free choice (unlike the salt), I just toss about a teaspoonful on her grain ration.  I also feed soaked beet pulp which is good for adding condition without overdoing the grains.

I hope she comes around for you soon.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 16, 2010, 11:14:53 PM
Thanks. I actually have some organic kelp from Modesto Milling that we stopped feeding fro some reason. I will give her some tonight. I have a batch of yogurt going right now with her milk mixed with the Jerseys'. We'll see how it does.

Thank you for being so helpful and well-wishing.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: linuxboy on August 16, 2010, 11:24:30 PM
Hope it works. Kelp is great stuff. It doesn't satisfy all the requirements everywhere, though. For example here in WA I still supplement my goats with additional copper and selenium.  If your other cow is milking well, I think you have enough calcium and macro elements in the regular forage and hay you feed, so maybe it's just a matter of giving an additional boost.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 16, 2010, 11:36:07 PM
Cheeses to you both!
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: MrsKK on August 18, 2010, 02:34:25 AM
Why thank you! 

Please let us know how things progress.  If time (like a month or so) doesn't improve matters, you may need to consult a vet, just in case she has something going on that we can't diagnose for you over the Internet.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 18, 2010, 04:41:27 AM
The milk seems to be improving. I got a good set with mixed milk from her and the Jerseys in only 7.5 hours incubation. For now we are going to keep on with the kelp, redmond block, and selenium block, and see what happens. Thanks for being so helpful.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: mtncheesemaker on August 18, 2010, 02:50:56 PM
Hope she's on the road to recovery!
Pam
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: Gina on August 18, 2010, 03:19:16 PM
Glad to hear things are improving. I know next to nothing about cows, but could it be some sort of bovine emotional issue? Moving is very stressful for most creatures. When I adopt a new pet, it takes them some time to settle into their new surroundings. Perhaps she is now just getting comfortable in her new home and her milk is improving because of that. I dont know if stress can affect the quality of a cow's milk however.

When you hear hoof-beats, look for horses cows, not zebra. Meaning the simplest explanation is often the answer.

Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: MrsKK on August 18, 2010, 11:08:00 PM
I'm so glad that things seem to be improving.  While moving is stressful, I can't imagine that the move to your home with lots of good, cow-appropriate feed and grazing, could have been negative stress in comparison to where she was.

You have done this girl a great service by rescuing her from the awful conditions she was being kept it.  You will be rewarded!
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: coco on August 19, 2010, 07:35:22 PM
Hi MrsKK *waving, I know you from KFC.

Nitai, Are you mixing her milk with the jersey milk from a cow that is drying off? Did I understand that right? You might consider the "drying off" cow could be part of the problem.  When my girl starts to dry off, everything goes off. My butter won't break, cheese won't set and milk doesn't last as long.
I don't know if that's your case, but could be something to consider.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: MrsKK on August 19, 2010, 10:11:13 PM
Wave back at ya, Hojo...Sorry I don't remember you from there, but I haven't been there for some time.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: tnsven on August 20, 2010, 12:44:31 PM
I'm going to second the kelp. My cows (sheep too) eat it over any mineral mix. And they eat it free choice.

I stopped feeding beet pulp after I found out they are all genetically modified now (as of 2 years ago, I believe). And they are really pushing the GMO alfalfa! It's not on the market just yet. Just seems we're running out of good things to supplement with!   >:(

Sounds like one happy cow there, Nitai.
Title: Re: Coagulated, Rennet, Cow, Raw - Poor Curd Set After Cow Drying Off & Changing Cow Type
Post by: BigCheese on August 23, 2010, 06:24:33 AM
Sorry I stopped getting notices of comments here via email. Thanks for all the feedback. She is definitely doing well, havent had time to really test the milk for curd sets though. We are not mixing her milk with a cow that is drying off, rather we are mixing it with 2 cows, one freshened 4 months ago, and one 2 months ago, more or less.

I got a great batch of yogurt but then my next was another dud. I want to ask more about that later...