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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => RENNET COAGULATED - Hard Other => Topic started by: Tiarella on June 06, 2013, 11:52:52 PM

Title: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 06, 2013, 11:52:52 PM
Made a Tomme and am experimenting with coconut oil used to adhere the leaves.  I believe this is the easiest leaf-adorned cheese I've done yet.  No molds have appeared and it's been weeks already.  I'm psyched. Now I just have to see how the coconut oil seal works with holding in moisture and preserving the cheese.  I have several plain tommes with coconut oil coating also.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Boofer on June 07, 2013, 07:20:17 PM
Watching with interest.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: shotski on June 08, 2013, 12:58:02 AM
Watching with interest.

-Boofer-

What he said
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 08, 2013, 01:19:43 AM
I've got an idea for  chive tomme with vertical chive blades inlaid around the whole edge.  Can hardly wait to do that one.  I've got two other tomes in the fridge sealed with coconut oil but no adornment and I'm not watching the humidity in the fridge.  I want to see how how protective the coconut oil can be.  I've so far learned that you need a pretty good layer to keep moisture in.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on June 08, 2013, 01:52:17 AM
Another nicely decorated chese! Well done.
A quick question, being denser, does the coconut oil sticks the leaves to the cheese better.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 08, 2013, 10:54:51 AM
Another nicely decorated chese! Well done.
A quick question, being denser, does the coconut oil sticks the leaves to the cheese better.

Yes, it works wonderfully because you can slather it on while warm and liquid but it cools and becomes solid.  Doing leaf adornment with honey worked well but it's a lot of careful washing of molds, being gentle working around the leaves so as not to wash them off.  I doubt I'll get the same "parchment" look with the coconut oil but the time saved may be worth giving that up and who knows, maybe this technique will yield different but very cool finished look.  I've done it on a tomme this time so it'll get aged longer than the Caerphilly adorned cheeses I did before.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: meyerandray on June 08, 2013, 12:06:43 PM
Very nice looking tomme! I wonder if the coconut oil would also be able to preserve the look/color of some edible flowers? I know from your blog you're a flower eater, have you ever tried to use them to adorn a cheese?
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: shotski on June 08, 2013, 12:30:36 PM
Have you done a coconut oil rind in the past and does the oil impart any flavour to the cheese?
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 08, 2013, 03:27:27 PM
I haven't found a flavor from the coconut oil on rinds but most of those rinds were natural rinds for a while first.  it seems to work well.

And, Celine, I like the flower idea.  I hadn't thought of that since discovering coconut oil.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: meyerandray on June 08, 2013, 07:01:23 PM
I put some fig leaves on a gouda i have aging today. It is about 3 weeks old, and has a clean rind, even though I haven't done anything to keep it that way. Today I noticed two little mold spots and decided to try the coconut oil kathrin convinced me to buy, I had seen this post and thought, why not try some leaves too. I cut the smallest leaves I could find on the fig trees, but they are too big for the sides. I boiled them in salted water first, mostly to get rid of that white gluey stuff (hope you non-scientists can understand that terminology  ;) ) . I did a layer of coconut oil, then the leaves, then another bit of oil to coat the leaves. I wasn't gentle enough and ripped one. It is a good first try, but not photo-worthy.
Will the leaves contribute flavor to the cheese?
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 08, 2013, 07:10:40 PM
The coconut oil looks very interesting.  I've not seen it here.  How solid is it in the cave? Is it sort of like wax hard, or is it a bit soft (as in, if it sat on a grill shelf for a week, will it sink into the grill / another way to put it is will the grill cut into it over time?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on June 08, 2013, 07:29:05 PM
I was a bit concerned about using fig leaves due to the white latex being an irritant.
However, I have found several pages that mention the use of fig leaves (ficus carica) and fig leaf extract as an anti-diabetic.

I would not use it personally as I am allergic to Kiwi Fruit (which also implies an allergy to latex products).
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 09, 2013, 10:36:59 AM
Celine, I don't know how much, if any, flavor might result from the fig leaves.  The coconut oil might shield the cheese or be a conveyer of flavors.  We'll rely upon you to report back.   :D.  Even using honey and leaves it was hard for me to notice much flavor that I could know was surely leaf flavor.  My coconut leaf one is a tomme so I will be aging it out.  Fig leaves are used by quite a few people.  Wonder of you could try freezing and thawing them to have them limp but sturdier.  What does Gianaclis Caldwell suggest in her book.  She's got that great fig leaf wrapped cheese whose working title was "Adam's Package" and It still makes me chuckle.

Jeff, the coconut oil is quite hard at aging temps.  I have a mat between it and the grill so I can't tell you if grill marks would appear in it but there are no mat marks in my coconut oiled cheeses.  The thing I like is that when I take one out of the cave to check on it, I can rub it and my hand warmth will soften the coconut oil so that I can smooth it over any patches I think are too thin.  If you don't pay attention to cave humidity, as I confess is the case with me, one needs to make sure you have a thick enough coating of the coconut oil to slow/prevent moisture loss.  I suggest coating the cheese, putting it in the wine fridge/cave and then recoating a day later, and then checking a day after that to make sure coverage is good.  But this quite a miraculous option for keeping rinds mold free.  I did have a wee bit of mold appear on the cocoa and paprika coated cheeses but adding a bit more oil and then just smearing it a couple of times when tiny patches of mold appeared totally did the trick.  There was NO more mold after that and they aged for quite a while, being exposed to lots of other molds.

Schnecken, wonder if fig leaves soaked in brandy would be safe.  or maybe just use grape leaves instead?

Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: meyerandray on June 09, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
I have grape leaves, well vines that obviously have leaves, but I didn't want to use them because we treat them with verderame (an organic copper-spray) and I was hesitant to eat that.  I know that it is natural, and wouldn't put it on my plants if it weren't, but still hesitate before aging my cheese in a copper-dosed leaf. 
I Gianaclis doesn't go too much into using leaves, she does reference her goat cheese "Adam's package" (I love that name too  :) ) but says that leaves can be dry, but are more frequently macerated in alcohol for a couple of weeks first.  I had seen your freezing suggestion, and would use that with a different kind of leaf, but wanted to get rid of the gluey substance in the stem of the fig leaf, so I thought I would boil it.  I probably could have boiled a few less minutes. 
I'll let you know if a few months how this one turns out, and thanks for the suggestions and inspiration!!
Celine
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on June 09, 2013, 07:51:24 PM

Schnecken, wonder if fig leaves soaked in brandy would be safe.  or maybe just use grape leaves instead?

I tend to err on the side of caution and didn't realise that the fig leaves were at all edible. As they say "You learn something new everyday"
I do have a grape vine, although it's now winter here, and use them for dolmades usually  O0
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 10, 2013, 01:22:37 AM
Gotcha, thanks.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 11, 2013, 11:16:23 AM
I've got an idea for  chive tomme with vertical chive blades inlaid around the whole edge.  Can hardly wait to do that one.  I've got two other tomes in the fridge sealed with coconut oil but no adornment and I'm not watching the humidity in the fridge.  I want to see how how protective the coconut oil can be.  I've so far learned that you need a pretty good layer to keep moisture in.

Did my chive idea on a chive Caerphilly and started a thread entitled Caerphilly Chived. 
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on June 11, 2013, 03:53:10 PM
Tia,

I experimented with a coconut oil coating yesterday. The oil that I used was solid at room temperature and had to be heated in warm water before applying with a brush. The oil remained tacky even after it cooled and air dried. To me, that makes the rind undesirable for eating and I feel the need to remove it somehow after aging. From a commercial standpoint, this would be really problematic.

There are different kinds of coconut oil with different melting temperatures. What are you using, and how are you applying it?
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 11, 2013, 06:09:37 PM
Hi Sailor,

I'm so glad to see you experimenting with this also!  Mine is liquid on very warm days but I heated it last night also before use.  I think one way to handle the tacky issue is before sale let it sit in a slightly warm room and wipe it with a cloth.  I notice that at warm temps is wipes pretty much right off.  I think a hair dryer or just putting it near something warm would help.  More work?  yes, but for someone wanting a clean rind and no petroleum wax it might be worth it.  I think it has other advantages also.....still experimenting and not coherent about those yet.  I may even try using it on a cut wedge to see how well it preserves a piece of cheese.  That may me a nice way to avoid other packaging although it'd never be okay in a self serve place like a super market.  I could see it in a cheese case.  I'll try it soon.  Let's keep experimenting.........
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: meyerandray on June 11, 2013, 06:50:26 PM
My fig leaves are starting to turn brown.  I thought the oil would have preserved them, I guess I should soak them in alcohol first next time.  I have a wild cherry infused grappa that my husband's colleague made, I might try in that.  Kathrin, you freeze your leaves straight off the tree/plant and then use them?  Do they brown at all?
A new use I have discovered, when applying the oil to the cheese, I had some on my hands, which were really dry, so I just rubbed it in, and have to say that it is great.  I put some on my feet too and they are like new!  I will be putting some on my hands and feet everynight before bed this summer.  I bed it is good after a day out in the sun.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 11, 2013, 08:29:33 PM
I wonder if combining coconut oil and beeswax would work?  It might solve the cracking that bee's wax has, wouldn't be petroleum based wax (which could be a selling point), and it would firm up the coconut oil?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on June 11, 2013, 09:09:46 PM
FYI coconut oil is classified as an allergen, which makes it a little more complicated for commercial purposes. A little sidebar - coconut oil is used in makeup, especially mascara to make it slippery. Lots of cases of women having reactions to mascara.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 11, 2013, 10:47:38 PM
That's a good point, and one that a commercial producer would want to consider.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 11, 2013, 11:02:07 PM
FYI coconut oil is classified as an allergen, which makes it a little more complicated for commercial purposes. A little sidebar - coconut oil is used in makeup, especially mascara to make it slippery. Lots of cases of women having reactions to mascara.

That's really surprising to me!  Hmmm.  I do remember that coconut oil used to be used for a LOT of cooking and other applications until the South Pacific's involvement on the "wrong" side during the war.  Coconut oil is credited with a lot of healthy effects that were lost when we switched to mainly domestic oils.  I'll do a bit more reading up. 

Don't think I want to mix beeswax into it because I'm pretty happy with it straight but I hope others will experiment with that.  I know some folks have added various oils to beeswax to make it less brittle. 

I think if and when I have an aging system with appropriate humidity I'll try very thin layers of coconut oil merely for mold protection.  I'll report back on that but it may be a while before I have the opportunity....  :-\
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 12, 2013, 02:02:01 AM
According to an Australian allergy web site (I've misplaced the link), coconut allergy is considered very rare (peanut and tree nut allergies are considered common - and they are separate allergies as the offending proteins are different).  But, there are those who are allergic, so it's best to let people know if you've used it.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Spellogue on June 12, 2013, 04:33:06 AM
I've barded cheeses with a number of different animal fats.  I like the ease of rind care and the character of the resulting cheeses.  Coconut oil seems a good "vegetarian" option, that would satisfy my eldest daughter.  She likes my cheeses, but didn't want anything to do with the farmhouse cheddar I slathered with rendered bacon grease. 
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: John@PC on June 24, 2013, 08:48:56 PM
I'm excited to read about your experiments with coconut oil, Tiarella, and your leaf application technique.  I've been using coconut oil off and on for about six months.   It's not as good as waxing, but a lot more convenient and quick and does soften the rind.  Sailor is right though in that it makes for a "greasy" feel because the transition temperature is around 72F and even though the cheese is cool your fingers warm the coating enough to make if feel "lardy".  That said, coconut oil is very stable compared to others and will keep at room temperature over a year without getting rancid.

I used the expellar pressed oil with the strong coconut aroma but lately have switched to a refined version with no noticeable smell.  It's actually popcorn oil I had sitting around with beta carotene in it that goes on yellow but eventually turns clear.  When I get ready to eat I scrape the oil off with a straight blade and wipe with a cloth as you suggested.

I've got a gouda and manchego ready to be coated, and this time I think I'm going to apply the lightest coating I can rubbing it in with my hands.  I will also attempt a leaf application, but I know mine won't look near as good as yours.

Jeff, you should be able to combine beeswax and olive oil at the beeswax melt temp but when cooled the beeswax portion will harden first.  I'm going from memory here having worked with different melt temp waxes for an industrial project so to make sure I've got some olive oil and canola mixed in the fridge to confirm.

One last advantage of coconut oil.  When you get through rubbing down your cheese you can either lick your fingers or apply liberally to your skin to moisturize.  Not something I would recommend with lard :P.

Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 24, 2013, 11:18:50 PM
hey John!  I'm excited that YOU'VE been using coconut oil for longer than I!  Very cool.  How has it done for you?  Do you keep your cave humidity correct or use the coconut oil to stave off desiccation like me?  You too can do cool leaf adornment.  Check out my first leaf adorned Caerphilly cheeses on that board.....they were done with honey and what a pain.  Some good tips about the leaves on that thread.  Vacuum packing them flat, fe
Reezing and thawing gives nice flat, limp leaves to use.  I'm hoping the coconut oil versions taste as good.  I did some cool leaf adorned Valencay style also.  Seeing the white PC bloom around the leaves is cool.

I can't imagine why you'd think that your leaf adorned cheeses won't look as good or better than mine!  Have fun with it.  Did you see the photos of my Caerphilly Cived cheese?  Fun chive adornment on that one.

Have you done coconut oil over cocoa powder and paprika rind cheeses also?  I find that a very cool use for that.
 :D
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: John@PC on June 25, 2013, 08:30:21 PM
I have a humidifier running in my cave and it keeps it right at 80%, but it drops if I forget to put water in the pan so then the oil helps.  I think it makes a generally softer rind as well.  Other thing I failed to mention that you probably already have learned it's great for coating the paste after you cut a chunk off.

I did look and your Caerphilly Chived and was so impressed I gave up my forum virginity and gave you my first cheese ;)  I liked the mottled look and love chives.  Did you just toast the fresh chives before adding or did you have oil in the pan?

I happened to have a brie I just finished today and even though it's a real messy pain I sometimes like to ash coat it because it looks so neat when you cut it and I think helps the coat to develop.  Thought about your leaves and thought I would have a little fun.  First picture is my poor attempt at making some leaf silhouettes (activated carbon gets everywhere you don't want it!).  Went ahead and finished the coating and at midnight I'm going to put the black cat in the cave ::).
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Tiarella on June 25, 2013, 11:12:22 PM
Hey, thanks for the cheese!  Did you go see the Caerphilly leaf adorned threads.  I give the name of the plant whose leaves I like to use.  it's a particular perennial geranium and I vacuum pack and then freeze.  It works very nicely to just press onto the wet bloomy cheeses.  The wetness of the draining whey combined with the limpness of the thawed leaves makes the leaves adhere and then the PC starts in and holds the leaves on.  Nettle leaves work well also and I think almost any leaf will work.  (edible leaves of course!). Thin limp leaves are probably easiest. 

I like the leaf pattern you did with ash.  too bad it won't show.  Do another one with the leaves and do leaves on a coconut oil rind, or did you already do that?  I do a layer of coconut oil and then put the leaf or chives on and rub more oil over them.  Cheese decoupage.   :D
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: jwalker on June 26, 2013, 01:47:14 PM
I wonder if combining coconut oil and beeswax would work?  It might solve the cracking that bee's wax has, wouldn't be petroleum based wax (which could be a selling point), and it would firm up the coconut oil?

- Jeff

Yes Jeff , it does work , I mixed some up two weeks ago as all my waxed cheeses were cracking if not handled very carefully.

I kept heating/cooling the wax until it felt right , it was eventually a 50/50 mix of oil and wax , and it's still harder than cheese wax , but it seems to be working very well on the ones I re-waxed.

Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 26, 2013, 06:41:00 PM
Thanks for the update.  I recall finding one suggestion to combine vegetable shortening (i.e. crisco) with bee's wax to make the bee's wax more pliable as well.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: John@PC on June 26, 2013, 09:45:16 PM
I need to order some cultures and will add beeswax to my shopping list to try.  I'm a fan of coconut oil like Tiarella but I'm not so much a fan of it's greasy feel.  In theory mixing the two should give separation problems when cooling, but if it works it works!  I did my own experiment mixing canola and olive oils in equal amounts and solidifying them in a freezer night before last.  They looked like they were well blended until I started to thaw the mixture out.  Turns out during "freezing" the olive oil coalesced in a little ball with the canola around it.  The picture shows the ball of olive oil (still solidified, with the little glass I used) surrounded by the melted canola.  Reminded me of an egg sunny side up ^-^
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Spellogue on June 26, 2013, 10:51:19 PM
I've got about 8 lbs of beeswax from last season's honey harvest.  Perhaps I'll try blending it with coconut oil for cheesewaxing as well. I'm hesitant to go beyond 50% wax in the mix.    I wonder if a blend of beeswax, coconut oil, and  small amount of peanut oil would yield a more pliable result. 
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: John@PC on June 27, 2013, 12:41:48 AM
The peanut oil could present a problem.  The solidification temp is very low like most vegetable oils so it may enhance the greasy feel.  Also it's not as stable as coconut oil.  Maybe olive oil could be an option?

Some months ago (before I d-contaminated my fridge cave) I did experience some black mold (almost mildew like) growing under some coconut oil coated cheese.  I scraped the oil and mold off, wiped with cheesecloth soaked in hydrogen peroxide and re-oiled.  Seemed to do the trick.   I didn't think about it but when I oiled I could have heated the coconut oil to waxing temp. and that should have killed the surface mold if not the spores.  I'll give that a try sometime soon.

I haven't yet used the cream (wax emulsion) coating but it sounds like a good option and I've read a lot about it on the board.  I'm pretty sure it has an anti-fungal agent that I assume is natamycin, but this could be added to your coconut oil / wax blends as well.  I run a ionizing system so mold isn't an issue for me, but for those of you that may need it and want to "oil" you can get the natamycin commercially.  It's expensive, but a little bit goes a long ways.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: jwalker on June 27, 2013, 01:05:33 PM
  In theory mixing the two should give separation problems when cooling, but if it works it works!

Maybe in theory , but the batch I made up , looks just like pure wax when hard , no separation at all.

50/50 wax and coconut oil , and I am going to try for a softer version , meaning more oil , will see if it works and report back.

If anyone else tries it , I would be interested in hearing your results.

Cheers , Jim.
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: Spellogue on June 27, 2013, 01:45:47 PM
Once I have something I need to wax I plan to try blending some beeswax and oils.  When I do I'll post about it.  So far this season I've made mostly fresh cheeses and started some blues.  I'm about to embark on a major bloomie campaign.  I have new white mold powders due to arrive today in my order from Yoav.  Yea!

I usually start into harder cheeses around August, but might make some cheddar types and semi-hard Spanish cheeses sooner this year. I normally use black wax for those, but a beeswax buff might be nice.  What did the color of your oil/wax blend look like?  Are you going to 60% coconut oil or even higher on your next attempt?
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: JeffHamm on June 27, 2013, 06:22:20 PM
I found this set of instructions for "cheese wax" on the net a few years ago.  I've never tried it, but if people are experimenting this might be worth a try:

CHEESE WAX (Ounces by weight):
13.5 ounces beeswax
2.5 ounces vegetable shortening

Heat the ingredients in an oven at 200 degrees F. until combined. Remove the wax from the oven and wait for it to reach 160-180 degrees F. Dip the cheese and remove it with one quick, smooth motion. Repeat this step until the wax is about 1/16th of an inch thick.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Coconut oil/leaf adorned Tomme
Post by: jwalker on June 28, 2013, 12:52:28 PM
What did the color of your oil/wax blend look like?  Are you going to 60% coconut oil or even higher on your next attempt?

It looks translucent white , much like paraffin wax.

I'm going to keep adding oil until it is too soft or something else happens , like it won't harden , then I will add back some wax until I find the mix I want.

It takes a while , because you have to let it cool each time to see what the finished consistency is going to be.

A good side job on a cheese making day. ;D