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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Lactic Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: kdttocs on January 16, 2013, 12:06:43 AM

Title: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on January 16, 2013, 12:06:43 AM
I haven't seen this video linked to yet in my quest to crack the Humboldt Fog *secret* - well not really secret. You'll see half-way through the video them hand forming the molds with what looks like very dry, pre-drained curd. It also shows them ashing and the approximate amount of ash being used. It also appears both in the inside layer and outside ash does not contain salt.

There's obviously quite a few steps left out but thought this could be helpful to those like myself who are intrigued by this cheese.

A Day in the Life of Humboldt Fog - Cypress Grove Chevre Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWqH0SXhEEM#ws)

Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: dirigoma on February 27, 2013, 09:43:26 PM
Hi Kdttocs,

I finally bought some Humboldt Fog, loved it, and since I've been making Valencay pretty successfully, thought I'd piece together an attempt at making one. Plus you posted the video and it motivated me!  I've only been making cheese a year or so though, so am still very much a beginner.

I based the recipe on one from this site, Peter Dixon’s Lactic recipe, the new Gianaclis Caldwell book and the 200 Easy Cheeses Valencay I've been making and may have altered too many variables.

My recipe:

3/4 gallon fresh raw Nubian goats milk (my own -- all I had)
Did not pasteurize. 
Heated to 78 degrees
Added 1/4 tsp+ MM100, pinch Geo 17 and pinch PC Sam. 
I also added ¼ tsp CaCl which I haven't been using in my cheeses as the yield is so high, but thought would help create a more dense cheese.

After 25 mins, added 4 drops rennet to 1/4c water.

Ripened overnight at 70 degrees for 17 hours.  Curd pulled away and cracked, golden whey pooled on top.

Predrained for 10 hours, same temp.

"Milled curd" like the video-- thought mine felt softer than theirs looked!  I have a new PH meter and haven't calibrated it yet, but the reading was 4.35 which seemed low? 

Used a large pressing mold (no holes) lined with cheesecloth and kneaded curd in place for first layer, ashed the surface, molded the second layer into place.  In this video they seem to scrape off the top but my mold was taller, and you can’t tell if they drain or immediately unmold?  I left mine to drain on a cheese mat overnight, redressed and flipped at 18 hours (very little whey).  Very delicate curd :(


After 38 hours draining in the mold, no more whey seen, but PH is now 4.14 and I had thought it would go up (I'm new to using PH).  Now it's in an 18% brine for ??  It's a large cheese, so figuring about an hour v. Crottins for 20 mins a side?

Plan is to drain on cheese mat until damp to touch, then ash fully (no more salt) and move to 55 degree 85 % RH fridge and see what happens.

Would appreciate if you or anyone else would weigh in about aging conditions/timing, or things I should already have done differently.  Will be a shame if it's a big soft Valencay that collapses, but would still taste good!

Thank you!
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on February 28, 2013, 04:14:23 AM
Hi there, Dirigo!  Nice to see you.  I love Humboldt Fog cheese too but it's hard to imagine brining it!  Whose recipes said to do that?  And how is it doing so far?  I sure hope it works because you'll probably share some next time we get together!!!   :D.   Hey, maybe you should bring your pH meter over and we'll stumble through a make with it together!  Two brains have got to better than one.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: dirigoma on February 28, 2013, 04:35:55 AM
Hey Tiarella, thanks for weighing in.  I salt brined instead of dry salting so it would be more even, and hoped more acid, to help the curd be more stiff and hold its shape rather than softening like the Valencay.  All this insight gained from a very long exchange about 'DeejayDebi's FIRST Goats Cheese and Soft Cheese Crottin de Chavignol,' here:  http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2019.60.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2019.60.html) . The thread included a Humboldt Fog recipe and words of wisdom from Francois about acidity.

Just coated it with ash and will leave room temp overnight, then put in the wine fridge tomorrow.  The curd looks fairly crumbly and shows some cracking after the brine.  Hopefully none of the moldies from the other cheeses in my fridge will cross over.

And yes, you will be tasting!
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on February 28, 2013, 12:32:13 PM
Oh, good news that I get to taste!!!!   ;D  I did watch that video you emailed me and posted and now I want to try it.  Still have less milk than I'd like but I can do a small batch.  I'll have to think on this.  Have a batch of 9 small Brie going right now but I'll save up the next 3 day's milk and try a "Sovereign Fog".   ;)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog 1st Attempt, Input on aging?
Post by: dirigoma on March 04, 2013, 11:03:17 PM
I'm just updating my progress with the Humboldt Fog type cheese I'm attempting, hoping folks that often weigh in on bloomy rinds might be able to advise aging time?

I salt brined for 40 mins then dried overnight and applied Ash to all surfaces.  It was quite wet, so I left at room temp overnight again and was just seeing some white mold starting -- new box and into the 55 degree wine fridge at 85 RH.

Now 3 days later, the white mold has grown over the ash, and I'm flipping it daily.  It's about 2.5 lbs so much larger than the Valencay's I've been making -- would love some feedback on how long to let the white mold grow and when to drop the temperature? 

My slice of real Humboldt Fog has grown drier (and is so good!) and almost crumbly rather than softer ... can't imagine this will do the same?

Thank you!
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 05, 2013, 12:08:18 AM
Looking great!  I don't have experience with this cheese (except tasting the piece I bought years ago) so hopefully folks who have done this cheese or type of cheese will chime in.  Still can't believe it's possible to brine a soft cheese!  Mind reeling still.   :o
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on March 05, 2013, 11:48:52 PM
.  All this insight gained from a very long exchange about 'DeejayDebi's FIRST Goats Cheese and Soft Cheese Crottin de Chavignol,' here:  [url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2019.60.html[/url] ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,2019.60.html[/url]) . The thread included a Humboldt Fog recipe and words of wisdom from Francois about acidity.
 


From the video the cheese is a lactic type, obviously predrained for extended amount of time (see how they use a dough cutter to spread it).
The curd is likely salted after draining.
so... basically this is cream cheese turned into a mold ripened cheese with some ash.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: dirigoma on March 06, 2013, 02:26:19 PM
Thanks for getting in on this Tomer,

You described the steps I took and it's looking great all nicely PC molded and appropriately dry in 85% RH.  It's still very firm and if a tiny Valencay would go another week or so at 55 degrees ... but I'm not sure how to retain the firmness in a lactic cheese instead of it aging into lovely ooze? 

I'm working my way through Caldwell's new book and was beginning to wonder if the Humboldt Fog was a stabilized curd, which I've never made?

Do you think I should just cut into this one when it just starts to soften at the edge?  It's the waning days of milk as we approach kidding season so I'm protective of my cheeses!

Dirigoma
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on March 08, 2013, 05:56:06 PM
I had an HF in the works when I originally posted the video here. Attached are some photos of my batch. I've learned a lot more about the HF process including a bit on the TV show Big Cheese.

Some things to note:
-1 gallon raw goat milk from a friend's alpine goat in a Camembert mold (yes I've since learned the risk of unaged, unpasteurized milks... but I didn't get sick this time)
-I briefly predrained curds in cheesecloth for about 1 hour
-Drained in two halves in to Cam molds for about  4 hours, flipping a couple times
-Dusted 1 half in the Cam mold and dropped other half on top, sandwiching the ash. Added about 1lb for an hour to press to halves together.
-Let drain for another 16 hours flipping every 4 or so
-Salted, it was a lot wetter than I was expecting
-After ashing it sat in 51F for 1 week flipping daily until white mold completely covered (had to pat dry first couple days to remove visible moisture)
-Wraped in cheesepaper and aged 13 more days at ~35F (home refrigerator temp) at which I cut open as you see in the picture
-Internal moisture seeped through ash and rind turning rind grey. This concerned me at first until I bough real HF and it had similar. Mine was more saturated though

At tasting I bought some real HF. The real HF was a lot drier. I actually preferred mine over the real one. Mine was more spreadable which the real HF was crumbly. I would by no means say mine was *better* as a whole since this cheese really defines it's own style and is the only example to compare to.

Next time I'm going to predrain and mill curds before molding as shown in the video. I wouldn't drain 2 separate halves as I did this time as predraining more will allow me to follow process more accurately.

Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 08, 2013, 06:03:05 PM
That looks beautiful!!!  A cheese to you for such a lovely make.  Looks like it has a bit of slipskin.....my ashed cheeses do also.  I haven't yet mastered how to avoid that but the flavor has not suffered.   :D
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on March 08, 2013, 06:43:57 PM
Thanks!!

I've done a few batches of Cams dealt with that but my last had no slip. Of the things I did different, reducing the internal moisture content and lower aging temp helped eliminate the slip. I had everything from complete liquefaction on my first batch to a perfect pate on my last.

When I do my next HF my hope is a more thorough predrain and a bit of milling, the reduced internal moisture will help with a better pate just under the ash.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 08, 2013, 07:06:13 PM
you wrote:
"Of the things I did different, reducing the internal moisture content and lower aging temp helped eliminate the slip."

How are you reducing the internal moisture?  A predrain?  Longer wait to cutting?  Enquiring mind wants to know!   ;)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on March 08, 2013, 07:51:23 PM
you wrote:
"Of the things I did different, reducing the internal moisture content and lower aging temp helped eliminate the slip."

How are you reducing the internal moisture?  A predrain?  Longer wait to cutting?  Enquiring mind wants to know!   ;)

Preface: This diverges a bit from the topic of Humboldt Fog but response to slipskin issue I was having.

I did my first Cam by ladling whole curds into molds as the traditional processes generally is. This resulted in the complete liquefaction. It wasn't until my last batch that I predrained in cheesecloth for about 4 hours, massaging about every hours. My thinking was I wasn't able to really drain the curd well enough in the cam molds and with air drying. I got surface moisutre that I had to pat dry during the mold growing phase. I don't know if it's related to the humidity in the air as I am a near the ocean. Once that mold grows and rind forms, whatever moisture is in the curd is trapped throughout the aging process. I figured a drier curd would create a firmer pate. I realize this is hotly debated on the board but it appeared to work for me. I would agree with someone more experience that I may be changing one part of the process to make up for not doing an early part properly.

I always want to stick to the traditional processes as much as possible but I realize when doing such small batches in less controlled environments, individualized adjustments are needed. I'm entering cheesemaking with a pretty extensive background in homebrewing beer. Nothing translates directly but there's a familiarity with the process be it time and temp control, etc. An important point I learned early on in homebrewing is consistency is far more important than accuracy. It allows you to adjust parts of the process to understand its effect and ultimately improve the end result.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: dirigoma on March 08, 2013, 08:19:12 PM
Hi Kdttocs,
Thanks for getting back in on this discussion -- your cheese looks great!  I did the predraining step and then "milled" but didn't add salt.  I used a large pressing mold (no holes) and cheesecloth to shape mine which was a bit clunky.   And I tried the salt brine since it was so fragile I didn't want to rotate it while salting (and I wondered if it would just dissolve, but it didn't).

At this point it's been at 55 in my wine fridge for a week and has grown a nice thick white mold all over -- actually patted it down a little last night.  For my Valencay I'd leave them at 55 for about 10 days watching that the white doesn't look too dry -- sounds like you went ahead and wrapped once it was covered?   Then can hold at 35 in my milk fridge for another weeks if I can stand it.  Figure worse case it would be too firm, but once I cut a wedge, the aging would stop?

Will post pics when I cut into it.  If you were closer you could join Kathrin and I for a taste test!

dirigoma
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on March 09, 2013, 01:08:43 AM
It's been my understanding that once the penn mold completely covers the cheese you want to stop the mold growth by dropping the temperature. At this time I also wrap with proper cheese paper as it's designed to maintain a microclimate immediate around the cheese, letting it breath but retain moisture.

In my first couple Cam batches, I would age at ~40-43F but this was also resulting it liquefaction/slipskin. When I started aging in my regular fridge at lower temps I got a slower ripening but I felt my time window of ideal ripeness was longer and the ripening wasn't as aggressive.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: dirigoma on March 09, 2013, 03:23:03 AM
Thanks for this as I'd hate to have it slip now!  Will wrap tomorrow and cool down, and try to hold off cutting into it! Dirigoma
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on March 09, 2013, 03:19:08 PM
you wrote:
"Of the things I did different, reducing the internal moisture content and lower aging temp helped eliminate the slip."

How are you reducing the internal moisture?  A predrain?  Longer wait to cutting?  Enquiring mind wants to know!   ;)

You can even give it a good 12-24 hours in the cave (its already finished acidifying to 4.6-4.7 pH in the pot).  this will give you a drier cheese which can perhaps be matured longer without going liquid and packing alot of aroma and texture.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 09, 2013, 08:26:34 PM
you wrote:
"Of the things I did different, reducing the internal moisture content and lower aging temp helped eliminate the slip."

How are you reducing the internal moisture?  A predrain?  Longer wait to cutting?  Enquiring mind wants to know!   ;)

You can even give it a good 12-24 hours in the cave (its already finished acidifying to 4.6-4.7 pH in the pot).  this will give you a drier cheese which can perhaps be matured longer without going liquid and packing alot of aroma and texture.

Tomer, how do you mean it can be given 12-24 hours in the cave?  In the pot?  In the mold?  I'd like to make sure I understand you so I can try it.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on March 10, 2013, 12:59:14 AM
The acidification of the milk takes about 18 hours (vary depending on culture and temp) in the pot after which enough acid has developed for coagulation to accure , at which point you drain the curds and yes, you can leave it in the cave to drain.  right now its still winter'ish so you can leave it out I suppose.  just check it every few hours to make sure the holes are not cloged and check the texture... you want it to look like in the video... :) 

Gone attemp it with cows milk and see if I can get it right.  Goat is too damn expenssive and a long drive away...   

 
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 10, 2013, 12:40:03 PM
The acidification of the milk takes about 18 hours (vary depending on culture and temp) in the pot after which enough acid has developed for coagulation to accure , at which point you drain the curds and yes, you can leave it in the cave to drain.  right now its still winter'ish so you can leave it out I suppose.  just check it every few hours to make sure the holes are not cloged and check the texture... you want it to look like in the video... :) 

Gone attemp it with cows milk and see if I can get it right.  Goat is too damn expenssive and a long drive away...   

Hmm, I'm still not sure but it sounds like you are talking about draining it in the molds.  I started a batch last night about 10 pm.  It was fully coagulated by 7 this morning and now it is pre draining.  I'm not sure how long to pre drain.  It was very well coagulated.  (1 1/2 gallons of raw goat milk) I'll have to head to the barn for two hours of morning chores and would normally stay there for another hour today to clean stalls but now wonder if I need to come back and hoop the cheese in between.  Any suggestions anyone?
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on March 10, 2013, 12:59:49 PM
I do mean predraining, hang it untill the curds are very dry. Id go with 12 hours then pack it tight into a bottomless mold like they show in the video with the ash layer in between.
 
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 10, 2013, 01:28:53 PM
I do mean predraining, hang it untill the curds are very dry. Id go with 12 hours then pack it tight into a bottomless mold like they show in the video with the ash layer in between.

Thank you SO much for clarifying SO quickly!  Now I can stay up at the barn knowing the cheese can drain further!   ;D
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on March 10, 2013, 04:47:07 PM
I'd just predrain until I got a texture matching the video. As Tomer1 said, 12 hours is probably a good minimum. It seemed very dry in the video. Certainly no visible moisture. I don't think maintaining the curd structure is at all required once predrained so it can be mixed and moisture gauged before molded without concern.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on March 12, 2013, 12:41:38 AM
Well, I did about a 12 hour pre drain and it dried out well.  Packed the curds into cheesecloth (wet with whey first) lined molds.  flipped them twice, rewrapping each time.  Had loaned out my cam molds so had to use crottin molds so now I have three small foggies.
I did stack and press them and got about a cup of whey drained.  I brined them for an hour, they dried out well and then I put ash on them.  They are now in a box at 50 degrees. 

I'm playing with names.....thought about doing a brandy wash after PC bloom and then naming them Brandy Haze.  Or Alcoholoc Haze. 

Tomer, are you doing one of these now?
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 04, 2013, 05:35:53 PM
So im attempting this one.
12L of cow's milk.
Probat 222 ,  2% Starter culture.
1\16 geo 13
1\16 PC neige
Thermized milk to 55c, held for 5 minutes and cooled to 32c.
Inoculated and after 60 minutes I added 2-3 drops of veg rennet diluted in cold water.

I'm excited! :)   

Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: akhoneybee on April 04, 2013, 06:52:36 PM
I love this thread and I've been following closely.  We had HF last weekend when friends came over.  Rave reviews.  Your cheese looks fabulous, is this the new cheese trend now!
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 04, 2013, 08:57:13 PM
If it turns out anything like a Buche de Chevre (minus the goaty notes) I'l be thriled.   Thats one of my favorite bloomy type cheeses... 
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 05, 2013, 12:14:56 AM
I did a Humboldt Fog style cheese and the make date was 3/9/13   
I used MA 4002, PC VB and Geo 13
I did a predrain for about 12 hours or so
Brined these for an hour and then ashed and put at about 55 degrees.
On 3/23 I wrapped 2 of them and put in fridge and washed the third with honey flavored whiskey and let it sit for a few more days before wrapping and putting in fridge.
I've been wondering when they'd be ready....giving them a feel once in a while and not noticing much softening.  Checked other comments on this thread and thought, "Oh my gosh, I better open these.....it's been 26 days already!"
Attached are photos.  I haven't had Humboldt Fog for a few years so I don't remember it's flavor well.  These surprised me but I can't quite tell you what the flavor reminds me of.  I'm calling the plain ones "Berkshire Mist"  (I live in the foothills of the Berkshire Mountains) and the whiskey one "Drunken Haze".  This cheese is particularly nice with the slices of apple.

Oh, I can't remember why the ash ended up at about 2/3 rather than 1/2 way up.  I think my misjudgment of how much curd was in the pot.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: akhoneybee on April 05, 2013, 12:18:35 AM
Stupid question,
What is PC VB and where do I find it?

I like the 2/3, it's "your" cheese....
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 05, 2013, 12:28:18 AM
Stupid question,
What is PC VB and where do I find it?

I like the 2/3, it's "your" cheese....

The only stupid questions is an unasked one.   :D
PC is Penicillium candidum and VB is just a variety.  You can check out varieties at this site.  (click on the more info links)  I don't buy from them but I find their descriptions very helpful.  I've been buying from forum member Yoav  (iratherfly) and his website has a launch date of April 9th I think.  Not everything will be up there but I imagine the PC will be.  Each variety of PC has a different personality.....with regards to vigor, height, etc.  Can I tell you that one is better than another for certain cheeses?  No way!  I am much too much of a beginner for that!!!   ::)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: dirigoma on April 05, 2013, 02:14:24 AM
Since Tiarella cut her Fog open, I braved opening mine even though it was a week older.  We're close enough for a taste test soon...

I used 3/4 gallon fresh raw Nubian goats milk, 1/4 tsp+ MM100, pinch Geo 17 and pinch PC Sam.  I also added ¼ tsp CaCl then 4 drops rennet.

Ripened overnight at 70 degrees for 17 hours.  Curd pulled away and cracked, golden whey pooled on top.  Pre-drained for 10 hours at 70.

"Milled curd" and kneaded into a pressing mold (no holes) lined with cheesecloth/ash/rest of curd.  Left to drain overnight, redressed and flipped at 18 hours (very little whey).  Very delicate curd.  Total 38 hours draining, brined in 18% brine for an hour, then dusted with ash.

55 wine fridge until white mold took over (thick and quickly), patted down, wrapped and into reg. fridge where it's been for 4 weeks and just started to soften on the edge.

Tasty, but quite 'fresh' compared to the more aged flavor of my Valencays.  The rind was pulling away and too thick, with a black line of (too much?) ash.  Texture is crumbly but creamy.  Very mild, PC flavor comes through at the rind. 

Then I opened my sliver of real HF which is now past ripe.  The consistency is completely different -- I described as 'saponified' from my soap making, but it was more cream colored and the consistency was very even and spreadable v. crumbly.

Would LOVE some whey-in here about some of the issues.  Did I use too much PC or Geo to cause the thick rind?  Did that stop the interior from melding together?  Or did I need a different make technique to get the smoother texture?  I figured HF was a lactic cheese, but wondered if it is a stabilized paste? 

Thoughts?





Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 05, 2013, 02:44:58 AM
Yours does look softer than mine.  I think you should come over this weekend.  Joseph is away at a conference and there's lots of cheese in my fridge to try and discuss.  We can hang out and have girls-talk-about-cheese time.  If we come up with any brilliant theories we can take notes and share on this forum. 

I ate quite a bit of my foggy style cheeses and the "Drunken Haze" definitely has a lovely nuanced flavor from the whiskey.  At room temp the paste just under the rind is starting to soften a bit.....it is a bit more ivory in color than the bright white of the rest of the paste.  They both were best on slices of apple. Bet they'd be really nice with pear.  One had the faintest flavor whiff of PR flavor.  Made me think I'll experiment with a Blue Haze cheese when the PR arrives. 

Off to bed to dream of baby goats.   :)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 05, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
I've managed to over ripen the milk.   drained at pH 4.57.   
I should have use less starter.  maybe 1.5%.   The temp droped from 32c to only 27-28c during the night (I double covered the pot) so I could have ripened with lower temp too.

It shrinked from about 3 kg of curds to about 1.5 kg now.

(http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/544528_431948956897857_2086810678_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/46671_431948993564520_1089846631_n.jpg)

(http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/482224_431948933564526_682437189_n.jpg)

Also there was a large fat layer floating on top of the whey which I lost.

I think I'l do a large one with ash (1kg) and a small one (300 gr) speked with some black truffle paste.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 05, 2013, 12:19:51 PM
hey, it's fun when a few of us attempt to make the same style of cheese at the same time.  maybe we should do it on purpose!  I have to wait a bit until more goats start giving milk but maybe then one of us could initiate a make of something.  maybe even another Humboldt Fog type cheese.  I'd like to experiment with washing it with stuff like wine or whiskey.  (I have a whole bottle of whiskey and I don't drink the stuff).   ???
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 06, 2013, 12:48:09 PM
After 12 hours of draining I ended up with 1450 gr of very dry creamy curds, I salted to 1.5% by weight and drained for a further 12hr at aprox 75f (room temp).
Not much whey was further released during by morning (maybe 50ml).
Despite make apeared to be too acidic , It tasted great. Not tart at all, way less acidic then my previous lactic cheeses.  Maybe LB can shade some light on how this is possible, perhaps it involves citrate metabolism?

This is the tiny crottin (150-200gr) with a line of black truffle paste running in the middle. (the small jar was about 14$)     High hopes!
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/562307_432467313512688_398256294_n.jpg)

And here is the "Fog", I decided to make it less tall so I can have more creamy paste and less crumbly center.  (The truth is that I was out of curds after making the one above   >:D )
Packed the first half tightly, ashed the center, packed the second half , ashed the top.  Flipped , smoothened the outside and then Unmoulded and ashed the sides.
It felt really fragile and soft compered to the video, Maybe they cool down the curds (?) before moulding so they are more easy to handle, I cant imagine putting the wheel on its side to ash, It would collapse by its own weight.

Its now in the cheese cave as 10-11c (which also doubles as a fermentation cave for 25 bottles of sparkling fruit rose wine), and Im out of room. :(
I hope to build a cool room next month for winemaking and have the fridge free again ,entirely dedicated to cheese aging.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 06, 2013, 12:50:13 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/536973_432465293512890_244677911_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/62810_432464710179615_1534903701_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537374_432467736845979_441566123_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/485309_432466880179398_1622248836_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/543760_432465880179498_1078063144_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/72973_432467966845956_2047889197_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/536998_432440113515408_1217567044_n.jpg)

And btw, I have a facebook group in hebrew (but with alot of pictures).  Artisianal cheesemaking at home

https://www.facebook.com/groups/342679915850767/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/342679915850767/)
Everyones invited :)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 07, 2013, 11:20:28 AM
Wow, Tomer!  Thanks for posting so many photos!!!!!  And notes!!!  On the Fog, did you pre-drain and then mix the salt in before packing it into molds or did you salt the outside after unmolding it?  What are your plans for aging  your cheeses?  The truffle one sounds amazing!!  Have you done that before?   :D
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 07, 2013, 07:55:39 PM
I bought the truffles with a lactic set cheese in mind.  But its also gone go inside some Tommes and maybe I'l get some sheep's mik for pecorino tartufo.
This stuff is very powerful, packs a big punch like no mushroom I've tasted.  Go some notes of fresh garlic heat action on the palate.   

The curds were dry salted after it has finished draining, 
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 08, 2013, 02:56:20 PM
I bought the truffles with a lactic set cheese in mind.  But its also gone go inside some Tommes and maybe I'l get some sheep's mik for pecorino tartufo.
This stuff is very powerful, packs a big punch like no mushroom I've tasted.  Go some notes of fresh garlic heat action on the palate.   

The curds were dry salted after it has finished draining,

Tomer,  I'm sorry to ask again but I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.  Is this what you did?  Predrained curds by hanging in cloth?  Then mixed salt into the curds before hooping?  Or did you put salt on the outside of the cheese after it came out of the mold?  I want to make this type of cheese again and I'm interested in trying different ways so I'm curious. 

I think I will have to find some of that truffle stuff too and try it somehow........      :D
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 08, 2013, 05:10:14 PM
I bought the truffles with a lactic set cheese in mind.  But its also gone go inside some Tommes and maybe I'l get some sheep's mik for pecorino tartufo.
This stuff is very powerful, packs a big punch like no mushroom I've tasted.  Go some notes of fresh garlic heat action on the palate.   

The curds were dry salted after it has finished draining,

Predrained curds by hanging in cloth?  Then mixed salt into the curds before hooping?  Or did you put salt on the outside of the cheese after it came out of the mold?  I want to make this type of cheese again and I'm interested in trying different ways so I'm curious. 
 
Exacly.   This is how I think they do it in the video.  I cant see any specs of salt in the ash they use and they mix the curds before moulding for a reason (dry salting is my guess).
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 09, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
 (https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/524648_434000113359408_1245194411_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/733815_434000096692743_1061747759_n.jpg)
PC has come bye to say hello.
I decided to flip it as it started to get a bit stuck on the drying mat.

It seems that the ash, deacidifying the rind allows for quicker onset of molds. 

The naked Truffle-lactic is still... completly naked.  No GEO or PC in sight.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 09, 2013, 10:27:52 PM
Also, the ash makes it easier to see those faint traces of PC and Geo.  maybe you have baby PC and Geo on the other one but it's invisible???   ???
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 13, 2013, 01:36:31 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/482729_435600456532707_859481625_n.jpg)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/536918_435600446532708_1148923631_n.jpg)
Got full coverage of PC.  I patted down the furr and its off to the normal fridge at 4-6c for 30-40 days?
The little guy too.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 13, 2013, 03:28:16 PM
hi Tomer!  Is that your Fog?  Looking good!  I just started another batch. 

Milk innoculated on 4/11 in evening.  Ladled into mesh bag for predrain the next morning.  Drained in bag from 7:30 am to 10:00 pm and then put in lined molds.  Once again I did a really lousy job of guessing when I'd put half the curds in so my "fog line" is at about 2/3.  They are in the brine this morning and I'm thinking of trying an experiment with one of my two foggies.  I want to have some red peeking through the PC so I'm thinking of dusting with paprika after the ash and then washing with whiskey after the PC blooms.  I hope the paprika does't inhibit the PC growth.

This batch I used MA4002, PC VB, Geo 17, MVA.  I have not yet found thorough info on MVA but I'm trying it to learn about it myself.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on April 13, 2013, 08:35:56 PM
For accuracy I thought I would add something about the salting process of HF.

In addition to the video I first posted, I've since watched one of The Big Cheese episodes on the Cooking Channel here in the US. In the episode on Beer and Cheese pairings, the host Jason Sobocinski, went to Cypress Grove Chevre and helped make HF with Mary Keehn. Jason and Mary both formed and ashed a HF themselves while the labor force was going to town on the rest of the batch. As he was describing the ashing process he tasted the ash and described it as tasteless but VERY salty. This salty ash was used for the middle layer and the outer coating. Nothing was mentioned about the curd being already salted, they were just grabbing a ball of drained and quite dry curd form a bin.

I suspect the salted ash is all they use to salt their HF. I can say myself that in my batch that turned out quite well (except too much moisture) I only salted with the ash and the saltiness level was about the same as when I tasted real HF side by side. I used standard proportion of salt/ash the bottle of ash said to use. It is definitely drawn into the cheese during aging.

Please don't think I'm saying any other way is wrong. I just wanted to add a piece to the puzzle.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 13, 2013, 08:55:26 PM
Thanks for the insights!  So you don't think the curd got mixed with salt during that time when they talk about it being mixed to it's perfect texture?  I just re-watched the video and he says something about the mixing and shows a big mixing machine...I wondered if salt had been mixed in then.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: kdttocs on April 14, 2013, 02:23:21 AM
Yeah it's definitely possible. The only reason I would say they don't is I know for sure that just by salting with the ash/salt mixture, the chevre draws it in enough.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 14, 2013, 03:49:29 AM
Here are my two fog-ish cheese experiments.  I put in molds after the pre-drain etc. already described. I used some grains in jars set into other molds as followers to provide a little weight to consolidate the cheese.  Very little whey drained out.  They are fairly firm although the curds weren't very dry but were very rich and oily.  I did mill with the curds with some salt. Did not salt on the outside since I brined them for 12 hours.  You can see the firmness in the photo where it's on it's side just after the pressing.

One of them is ashed and a Star Anise seed pod gently pressed into the top.  I won't be flipping this one, just moving it a bit so it won't stick to the mat.  I may buy some fruit liquor to wash this with.  I'll wait for the PC to get ahold first though.  Keeping with the "fog" theme for names maybe I'll call this "Starry Mist". 

The other I dusted with ash and then dusted it with smoked paprika.  My plan is to let the PC get going and then wash with brandy or whiskey to see how that goes.  I believe from my last experiment of washing with the whiskey that it'll knock back the PC a bit and expose some of the paprika giving it a lovely melange of rich colors.  I might call this one "Red Brandy Haze" or "Brandy Red Haze".

Let's keep posting updates of various Fog versions. 
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 20, 2013, 07:36:19 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422117_439483572811062_2023529384_n.jpg)
Hi, look at Geo!  ;D

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/11775_439483619477724_2041361809_n.jpg)

Opened too soon at 14 days. needs at least 30 even for such a small format. all though you can see a bit of slip skin starting on the corner which is very odd given the lower moisture, use of GEO and cool aging.

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/427792_439483512811068_1725033439_n.jpg)

Good taste, acidic but not tart. a bit crumbly.  I think needs more butteryness, maybe MD culture in addition or lower ripening temp.
The truffles give a nice pungent taste and aroma.   
Overall, A house staple. Will be making plenty more.

I wraped in cling film half of it and put it back into the fridge for a week.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 28, 2013, 12:34:11 AM
Nice cheese, Tomer!   ;D

So, my experiments continue on.  I have 3 batches of Foggish type cheeses ripening.  I have decided to wash them all with Honey flavored Whiskey.  Some of them I've put a Star Anise seed pod on top and one of them, the big one, has one in the middle of the cheese also.  (if I'm remembering correctly, I'm a bit brain dead from lack of sleep)

I did one pair of these cheese with some beet powder and hoped it would create a nice red layer under the ash that would be exposed when washing with whiskey but the beet powder lost it's color.  Darn!   :-\

The large version is the only one I have photos of after the whiskey wash.  The others I forgot.  I'm planning on washing a number of times each time the PC recovers.  I haven't decided when they'll get wrapped and put in fridge.   ???
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 29, 2013, 05:18:58 PM
The star aniss looks like a fat spider with the PC covering it :)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 29, 2013, 06:06:04 PM
The star aniss looks like a fat spider with the PC covering it :)

 ;D  Maybe I should call it spider cheese!  What's amazing to me is how much flavor the star anise adds to the cheese. At least, on smaller ones it does.  I'm curious how much it'll be noticeable on this larger one although with another seed pod inside maybe it'll work well and be flavorful.    :D
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: meyerandray on April 29, 2013, 06:25:22 PM
Tomer, I am still learning about my molds, but isn't that PC on your form?  I have innoculated Geo in a chevre I made, but it was dominated by PC- a contamination in my cave, which I hopefully resolved yesterday.  Anyway, I thought that Geo made a harder rind, and not that thick one?  How do you differentiate the two?  I looked for google images online, but for the Geotrichum, they were either under a microscope, or not very helpful...
-Celine
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 29, 2013, 06:39:48 PM
Tomer, I am still learning about my molds, but isn't that PC on your form?  I have innoculated Geo in a chevre I made, but it was dominated by PC- a contamination in my cave, which I hopefully resolved yesterday.  Anyway, I thought that Geo made a harder rind, and not that thick one?  How do you differentiate the two?  I looked for google images online, but for the Geotrichum, they were either under a microscope, or not very helpful...
-Celine

Celine, hope you don't mind me saying something in response to your post to Tomer.  Geo comes in a bunch of different forms that look different.  That's the first thing.....the second things that I know about Geo is that it is usually a somewhat slippery (and often shiny) thing whereas PC is more matte.  PC and Geo sometimes seem to be happening at the same time but I think I read somewhere that Geo starts and PC happens next.....   hope some experts reply.....   -Kathrin
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: meyerandray on April 29, 2013, 08:36:45 PM
Hey Kathrin, thanks for the response.  I am making crottin, which should be covered in just Geo, no PC, and it should give sort of a wormy-texture to the cheese.  Here is a pic of what it should look like...
I am just a little confused between the two I guess, I can definitely recognize that what I have is PC, and not geo, I have just noticed that you all seem to distinguish so easily between the two-I was hoping to be enlightened  ;)
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 29, 2013, 09:26:15 PM
Okay, newbie response here......for me it seems like the Geo is more translucent and ivory while the PC is matte and white, not translucent at all.  BUT, I have very little experience and with only Geo 13 and Geo 17 and the 17 I just got recently.  I think I've been told that you can control whether Geo or PC dominates by your conditions.  Like so much else it seems to be a condition of bio-terrain that control what shows up.  For instance, I always get a wild blue (not PR, maybe a yeast even) on all my hard cheeses but it can't gain a foothold upon white bloomies or when certain other molds are present.  For instance, my experience with Mycodore was that it dominated and kept everything else away.

  Because I'm not selling cheese I play a bit and don't worry if I don't reach the outcome I aimed for initially.  I also figure that on many old farmsteads historically there wasn't the option of separate aging cellars or plastic box mini-caves and that somehow they had more than one kind of cheese co-exist.  (all without bleach, ozone machines, etc)  I'm playing with seeing what is possible by controlling the bio-terrain of each type of cheese to, in effect, either out out or hide the "Welcome Mat".

On all my hard rind cheeses I've never felt that PC gained any traction.  I might see a dusting of white but that dusts off if I want.   Oh, and on soft blooms the Geo shows up first to prepare the way for the PC.  but I see a mix of Geo and PC in your photo I think.
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 30, 2013, 11:07:45 AM
Oh Tomer.......   ;D. Just want to let you know that my taste buds want to know how your cheese with truffle came out.  it sounded like it would be amazing.  And photos?????????    ;D
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tomer1 on April 30, 2013, 09:11:34 PM
Photos above, thin black line of mushrooms. I'l be more generous next time.

It adds alot of flavor and aroma but it doesnt spread to the rest of the paste, only where it is eaten.  I think mixing it up instead of a line will be tastier but perhaps less pretty :)

That crottin looks amazing.  I got to try making some. how long do they rippen?
Title: Re: Humboldt Fog video - small snippets of their process
Post by: Tiarella on April 30, 2013, 09:32:57 PM
Photos above, thin black line of mushrooms. I'l be more generous next time.

It adds alot of flavor and aroma but it doesnt spread to the rest of the paste, only where it is eaten.  I think mixing it up instead of a line will be tastier but perhaps less pretty :)

That crottin looks amazing.  I got to try making some. how long do they rippen?

I have no idea how long it will take to ripen these.......I just guess.  I'm not sure how long to wait for the big ones.  I'm not sure I'd call them crottin but maybe that is what a Humboldt Fog is?  I am in the midst of kidding season.  I'll see if I can attach a short video of why I'm not on top of cheese care these days.   ;D. Warning, cuteness alert is in order.