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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Rennet Surface White Mold (Penicillium candidum) Ripened => Topic started by: vogironface on December 30, 2009, 03:45:57 PM
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These little guys are 9.5 days old and look to be nearly covered in mold. Several days ago the other side looked like this and I flipped them. I could wait longer for a more fully covered cheese if it does not hurt anything. What are your thoughts?
1/20/2010
Modified original post to add make notes. Not bad for my first camembert but the cheese has some ammonia smell and after taste. No slip skin but soft only on the edges. Comments welcomed.
1 gallon whole milk
.1g flora danica
1/4 tsp cacl2
1/32 tsp sam 3 p. cad.
.08g m-50 tablet rennet
7:10 added cacl2,culture and p. cad. at 85 degrees Fahrenheit
7:19 added rennet at 85 degrees Fahrenheit
floc time 11:00 with a factor of 5.5 added 60:00 for total rennet time of 1:11:30
8:37 cut curds horizontally with 1/2 inch curd knife but not vertically. Scooped curds into molds immediately thereafter.
placed the molds on a cookie sheet and left in the oven with light on. About 80 degrees Fahrenheit.
- flipped frequently and increasing intervals and at 12:15 went to bed. Next morning I salted both sides, 1 tsp per side and placed in the molding box in the cave at humidity of about 85 and temp at 54 degrees Fahrenheit.
- After 2.5 days lowered temp to 49 degrees Fahrenheit.
- Mold appeared at end of 6th day.
-Flipped cheeses on day 7
- fully covered by day 10 with mold and wrapped. Moved to the kitchen fridge at 42 degrees Ferenheit and 39% humidity.
- Flipped about every 2 days. Opened to inspect every week.
- Day 31 opened to eat because I smelled some slight amonia smell from the cheese. No slip skin and a beautifull soft pate about 3.8 inches thick with a hard center. The aftertaste is somewhat unpleasant but edible.
- I am happy as a first attempt.
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Looks good Ben, You can wrap them.
Next time, don't wait until one side is completely bloomed, turn them every other day until evenly bloomed.
Happy New Year !!!
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I think they look good, Ben. I find sometimes that mine aren't 100% covered with white and sometimes they are. Seems like when I unwrap them, they're all good.
Congratulations! Now the other hard part: waiting!
Pam
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That looks very nice Ben. Looks like you have a great cheese in the making. Congrats!
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Pam,
From what I have read the hard part is just beginning. Isn't it pretty easy to get the mold to take and cover the cheese? I keep wanting to think I am half way there but I really think I am starting the hard part.
Alex,
Thanks for the tip. I will flip every day next time.
I have searched the forum to try ad find how to sterilize the supplies used in molded cheeses to prevent cross contamination. Is this done with bleach? If so what is the process? I would like to keep my cams cams and my blues blue.
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Alex,
Thanks for the tip. I will flip every day next time.
You missunderstood me Ben, not every day, every second day is just right.
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Got it Alex, you were clear in your first post but I did not read it carefully. Every other day from now on.
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I have to agree with Alex too. My recipe tells me to turn every 2-4-5 days. But I have had too many cheeses rip their rind during the turning process, no matter how careful I tried to be. I have found that if I turn every day this situation very rarely happens.
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Agreed! it gives the soft delicate cheeses to much time to sink into the mat and stick. Turning more often also seems to encourage more even mold development.
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9.5 days is a bit young to wrap. You could get premature mold death if it is not established enough. Commercially cams are wrapped anywhere form 11-13 days depending on recipe.
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Hi Ben;
Yes, the mold seems to grow easily and quickly. The hard part for me is getting that nice mold growth and not getting slip skin during that period.
Did you notice any skin slippage while wrapping? I've only ever had slip skin develop once after wrapping and then it was very slight. It was actually very good cheese although the middle was still "firm". I'm going to check my notes and compare my days to wrapping with Francois' suggested times.
BTW, there is a good paragraph on soft cheeses I read in a book I just got, Italian Cheeses, the Slow Food Edition. If I can figure out how to post it on the thread about Camembert info, I will.
Pam
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Pam,
I felt no evidance of slip skin. Things were very firm, of course hey were only 10 days old when I wrapped them. I always thought slip skin developed later in the process.
I have not seen any discussion on the time of wrapping and stage of development of the mold relative to slip skin. I wonder if it has an affect. I bring this up because it seems that we all have such a wide range of experiences with this cheese. I imagine there are a lot of variables and I wonder how the stage of mold development fits into it. We have discussed geo and temps and moisture a lot relative to slip skin. Anyway, just thinking aloud.
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I hear you! I wish I could say that I've nailed this cheese but every time I make it I hold my breath. Never sure how it's gonna turn out.
Just ordered a pH meter so hoping that'll help all my cheeses.
Pam
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Your leading edge appears to have that electric lime green mold I get on my Camemberts!
My latest batch got it slightly on top of the white mold, so I hope it doesn't spread. My second Cams had it BAD and they were a stinky mess. If that is the same mold, I was told on here that it comes from too much moisture in the cave. After I made sure to clear out draining water, it lessened.
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Hi Ben,
On another note, where did you get those great round cheese mats???
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You can get them for under a buck at Michaels. Knitting grids in circle form.
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Thanks Chee. I think what you are seeing is poor color in the photo but when I open them for a peak I will check for lime mold.
Missy, I agree they are great. I got them at walmart. They are those plastic mesh things that folks sew yarn through. In their craft section they have several shapes pre-cut in little packages. The round disks are about 5 inches round. They cost about a dollar a package and I think there are 5 in a pack. The quality of the molding of the plastic is a bit hit and miss but they are inexpensive.
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Chee,
do the mats from michales have those same problems with some sections not having holes but instead a thin film of plastic from poor molding?
Also, open to discussion for all. Below is a photo of my now 14 day old cams. I have spent so much time trying to figure out how to get them here that I now realize I do not really know how to tell when they are ready other than cutting them open. I think that that is the only way and once a system is developed for my local enviroment it will be fairly close each time. Any thoughts on this or their current state are appreciated. Oh, and chee, no lime green mold thankfully.
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Ben, your Cam looks perfectly professional.
To check for readiness, you may press the middle of the wheel between your thumb and index finger. The feeling should be like when pressing your eyeball.
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Looks fantastic but about a week too early. Hard to judge without touching and smelling.
My rule of thumb with these: If they are wrapped and refregirated at proper temperature, do not cut open before 21 days have passed since the day you wrapped them. If they happen to be ready before that it usually means that you matured them at improper temperature or humidity and you can expect slip skin and lactation outside with a soapy unripe core.
There is this popular YouTube video of the frommagier at Fairway Market in NYC explaining how to check: YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FdBfgB1UV0#)
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BEN--I haven't noticed any with slight film. They seem perfectly formed! You should go and look through them sometime. I purchased 10 in different shapes and never had troubles with quality.
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Ben, that is a beautiful cheese!
I would wait at least another couple of weeks, depends on your ripening temps too. When I open one I usually put it on a plate under a glass cheese dome (or bowl) for 8-24 hours. We like our cheese fairly ripe at my house.
Congratulations.
Pam
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I just checked on my 4 Cams, all 7 weeks old now.
GOOD STUFF! The outsides are just like store bought, but the sides are still funny because the packing wasn't tight on the sides.
They are a little colder than recommended, though, so I hope they are maturing well enough.
The ammonia smell isn't there yet.
I'll open them in the first days of February.
This thread is making me enthused for Camembert.
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Chee,
I don't think mine will make it to 7 weeks. What size are your cams and at what temp are you aging them. There are times when I feel these will be ready by 20-30 days so I am interested in the conditions yours are aging in. Mine are just under 4 inches diameter and just over 1 inch thick. I am ripening at 42 Fahrenheit.
iratherfly, Great video, that helps a lot. Thank you.
Alex, Thank you. That is high praise coming from an accomplished cheese head like you.
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Ben that looks wonderful! I applaud you - you have done a great job!
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I have the same: 4" PVC molded, about an inch high. My cave was in the high 50's for the first stage, then I took them out of the cave into the room which was then kept in the 40's, but recently dipped into the high 30's for a couple weeks.
On another section of the forums I asked about possible problems of too-cold aging. They never froze, so I assume there is dormancy perhaps, but nothing bad.
I'd like to have mine a little saggy in the meat of the cheese. The first cam I made went 11 weeks and was nice, but still firm. It had quite an ammonia smell in the shell, though. Not a bad cheese, aside from too much salt (reapplied outside due to cat's hair): great texture, proper shell, proper odor, just too salty-what was behind the salt was good. My second batch of cam was swamped by a lime green monster mold, and those turned into stinky crap (the mold was from too much moisture in the cave). This, my third try, looks right, so I'll let them slide through to very ripe condition... if I can.
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Freezing will cause, at a minimum, texture problems, but more than likely will cause disintegration of the cheese once the fat disassociates. Freezing anything but high mosture cheeses is bad, with a few exceptions. I have used 500# blocks of cheddar that were frozen for shipment but they had to be vacuum sealed and thawed in progressively warmer freezers then refrigerated rooms. Even then they weren't that great on texture.
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Ben just gotta say, that cheese looks wonderful. Well done.
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While making my own camemberts, I came to appreciate the use of plastic molds. I think there are other shapes which are fun to experiment with. I hope they can also mold other shapes like cartoon characters so I can urge my children to taste them. Injection Molding Indiana (http://www.burco-molding.com/)
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Well, today I opened the second cam. I have modified the original post with make notes and photos. Some observations and some questions follow.
1) No slip skin. This is good. Rind not quite rubbery but nearly so. Also somewhat dry.
2) Very slight ammonia smell. This was my cue to open it. Was this wrong? Should I have left it longer? There is an ammonia aftertaste in the cheese, though slight.
3) What can be done to age the center of the cheese more like the outer portion?
4) Any thoughts/ suggestions on this batch for improvement?
5) My ph meter went out on this batch so sorry, no ph notes but I believe it was about 6.47 at 3 hours 30 min into the process when the meter went out.
Your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks for your help everyone. The second batch has been molding for 10 days now and I will probably wrap them in 2 more. The adventure continues. :)
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I have never done it with a pH meter Ben. I just got one and have no idea how to use it or what to look for in numbers. All my recipes are from traditional books that just say I should wait so many minutes or multiply inoculation times. Can you teach me what to do?
I just wrapped tonight 2 nice looking Camembert de Chévre. I find that 9 days is perfect for them when I start them off in a box at 95% RH in my wine fridge at 54F. I also salt them with just a little ash. Today was bitter-sweet though as I had to throw away a batch that was made in unstable temp and ended up toad skin all over. What a bummer.
As for ripening the center, I believe that time is the best answer. Age it longer. This may be challenging once you opened the cheese already though. If you feel that the outside is ripening too quickly and the inside isn't at all - think of it like cooking a vegetable. Obviously if the outside is burning and the inside isn't cooked yet you are using too high of heat. You need to cook longer at lower temp. - Same goes for soft cheese that ages too quickly outside.
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This makes me anxious to get my Cams and Limburger opened.
They're still lounging in tin foil in a (generally) 45ºF room. They were sitting in the high 30's for a few weeks. LOOK GREAT! Have all the right stuff going on, all the right smells, etc. It's 9 weeks now, and they will be 10.5 when opened.
The limburger is odd, but I'm not sure what I am looking for. It looks fine, but it seems to be smelling oddly buttery... hm.
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Chee,
Did you eat those cams yet?
I ate some of the cam I opened then noticed as it sat out the ammonia smell and flavor mellowed a bit. This gave me 3 ideas.
1) On my current batch every Sunday I will unwrap them for about an hour on the counter to breathe a bit. Perhaps this will keep some of the ammonia at bay.
2) I will also try aging a batch in the box and unwrapped.
3) I stuck the 2 halves of this one back together and left it in the fridge for another week. They ripened a bit more and while I would not call it an excellent taste or texture I did eat the whole thing. It seemed to ripen a bit more in the process. It was great on crackers. Sooo, I think if I cut one and it is not ripe yet I will stick it back together before eating and see if it heals and finishes the ripening.
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Ben, the full flavor of Camembert does not come out until it has reached ambient room temperature and been opened anyway so this is a good practice even if you buy those at the store.
As for your other two - if they already show signs of Ammonia, I would take them out of the aging box (if they are still in it) and store them in the coldest part of the refrigerator. These are done aging or are getting pretty close to Affine. Since they are not stabilized like the store bought kind, they will continue to age, so you need to slow it down ASAP.
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I haven't tried my Cams yet. Saw them yesterday in the aging room (it's 40ºF out there while it is -15ºF outside, so I rarely go out there), and they felt good and looked good.
Sunday my girlfriend arrives from Germany. She helped me make these in November, and we'll eat them together Monday onward. Oh man.... can't wait to see how these turned out.