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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Forming Cheese => Topic started by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on October 23, 2012, 08:11:51 PM

Title: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on October 23, 2012, 08:11:51 PM
Greetings all,
I have finally moved my way into mold ripened cheese (brie specifically). I am looking to increase my cheese mold collection and want to get a few molds for making brie (and other similar cheeses). I made my first brie a couple of nights ago and used a couple of hoops I made.
I encountered a recipe which uses a beaker style mold for brie (IE closed bottom). Has anyone done a side by side comparison to see which method, hoop or beaker, is better? It seems to me that using a hoop would result in a stronger rind due to the air exposure. However, if you are salting the top and bottom of the cheese after forming, it seems to me the same effect would be achieved (the recipe called for salting this way).

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on October 23, 2012, 11:10:11 PM
You will need to look at this question in relation to the entire fabrication process of this cheese rather than the moulding alone.

Traditionally, Camembert, Brie, Coulommiers etc., are made in hoops rather than moulds. The hoops have weeping holes, which enable the whey to escape under pressure as to prevent whey pockets.  More importantly, this keeps the draining direction going downwards.  This works with a fragile acidic curd. Remember that in this fabrication the curd is either uncut or cut to vertical strips. The only thing that cut it horizontally is the scoop itself. The moulding is done in layers with the scoop so the curd structure is maintained and it is large and wet.  To top it off, the final cheese should shape in a form factor that works for surface ripening.
...In other words, this is an entire ecosystem of practices and substances that works together; the choice of mould is not a standalone element but a part of a bigger picture.

Of course, you can create a Brie using bottomed mould. The risk is that it drains from the sides and that it doesn't drain fast enough from the bottom and whey gets trapped longer than it should below the curd.  As the curd knots, it will grow a skin which is the start of the rind. If it begins to grow before a sufficient amount of whey has drained -you will end up with trapped whey = cheese that's too moist. This is often the culprit in common brie defects such as slip skin and ammonia, overgrowth of geo and receding PC.  The larger the cheese is - the more significant of an issue this becomes (because smaller cheese is more likely do dry faster throughout). If you make a small version like Camembert medallions and dry it properly, you will probably be okay.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on October 23, 2012, 11:14:54 PM
Thanks iratherfly! Very thorough response!
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on October 23, 2012, 11:18:31 PM
Anytime!

You should take a minute to introduce yourself in the intro section. Tell everyone who you are and where are you, and what cheese you are making or want to make. Makes it easier to get good responses to your posts!
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on October 24, 2012, 10:17:15 AM
Oh yeah, good call.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Shazah on October 24, 2012, 03:24:55 PM
I tried a Brie/Cambozola experiment a few weeks ago using a Brie mould and 4 x Camembert moulds, all in the beaker style you refer to (they all had a bottom)

I read on here that in days gone by, the curds were not cut for this style of cheese so opted to try and just gently scoop the curds into the moulds.  I was a little uncertain if they were going to be too wet but I turned them daily, in their moulds and let them sit at cool room temperature for 24 hours.

I also tried the method of just sprinkling the Roquefort mold over half the curds, then topping to fill the mould.  I pierced them after they were firm enough on about day three and then again yesterday to try and re-open the holes after they were covered by their white, bloomy loveliness.  I couldn't resist a taste of some of the paste left on the spike.  It was very buttery with a beautiful blue flavour, so again I am filled with eager anticipation to try these out in a few weeks.

I'm delighted that I've been able to get two styles of cheese from one make of 11 litres.  Only time will tell if I've been successful in keeping the blue out of my Brie  ???
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on November 15, 2012, 02:59:23 PM
How is that cheese aging thus far?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Shazah on November 15, 2012, 09:09:21 PM
Hi Yoav
My little Cams had a beautiful creamy texture but sadly, hardly any blue flavour at all.  Occasionally I would get a slight blue taste near the rind but nothing to speak of.  I was really pleased with the texture though as I did worry they might suffer from slipcoat.

I haven't yet tried the Brie.  I have it ageing in the cold fridge.  When I checked it yesterday it felt a little firm but I will open it up next weekend and see how it tastes.

I hope everything has settled down for you now, and your wife and business are better after the storm.

Cheers
Sharon
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Tiffany on November 15, 2012, 10:56:22 PM
I made brie hoops with 6" pvc pipe.  Drilled holes and viola!  They work perfectly.  I made the somewhat deeper, as I fill up, and cut in half or thirds for more cheese from same batch.  As soon as it pulls away from sides I take it out and cut to aging thickness.  I also do this with my cams.  They turn out wonderful.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on November 16, 2012, 03:21:52 AM
You really shouldn't be using PVC; it should never come in contact with food.  Frankly, a commercial creamery-grade, food-safe Brie hoop, imported from Europe - costs less than the milk of a single Brie -and can be used daily for 15 years. (not to mention it gives you proper drainage speed and makes a beautiful cheese). Isn't it worth it?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Tiffany on November 16, 2012, 06:18:51 AM
I am not producing commercially, line them with cellophane as well.  Last camembert molds I ordered were pvc from a cheese supplier.  If and when I do my licensing I will change molds, not all home cheese makers can afford fancy molds, sad but true I know. lining with celophane works very well. I just pop holes in it.  I wouldn't use it for a cheese that was gonna be in the mold very long tho. 
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on November 17, 2012, 01:32:47 AM
Who is the cheese supplier sells moulds from PVC? Sounds like a hobbyist that hack them out of building construction materials from The Home Depot in a total disregard to food safety.

I realize not everyone has budget for fancy moulds but how cheap can the hacked PVC construction materials possibly be?  I mean, in my business I sell Camembert hoops, (imported from France) for $8.99. The Ø200mm (Ø8") Brie hoops (from Italy) go for $13.79. They are industrial food-grade and made to last many years in the daily abusive creamery environment, taking on repeated boiling, commercial dishwashing and chemical sanitizing.

Most hobbyists who don't own their own animals pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-$16 per gallon of creamline or raw milk.

Cellophane is a good food grade material. It may be not totally optimized for Camembert/Brie but some people poke a few needle holes in it to improve air flow without drying the cheese and it can work well and cheap.  Do you get it as sheets or bags?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on November 20, 2012, 10:38:30 AM
Who is the cheese supplier sells moulds from PVC? Sounds like a hobbyist that hack them out of building construction materials from The Home Depot in a total disregard to food safety.


Well... not trying to point the finger but the only supplier that I am aware of (who appears to have since stopped carrying PVC based moulds) is Steve Shapson (thecheesemaker.com). I have not seen those PVC moulds on his page in a while- I think he only makes Dairythene moulds available now. As I recall, he stated on his site that he did look into the food safety of using PVC and was told that it is not approved for commercial purposes but OK for home use. I am not sure what that means exactly and would never let food come anywhere near PVC, but I do believe him when he says he checked into it (Still did not convince me to go that route).

I am not producing commercially, line them with cellophane as well.  Last camembert molds I ordered were pvc from a cheese supplier.  If and when I do my licensing I will change molds, not all home cheese makers can afford fancy molds, sad but true I know. lining with celophane works very well. I just pop holes in it.  I wouldn't use it for a cheese that was gonna be in the mold very long tho. 

You know your situation better than I do, I do not mean to speculate on it, but I thought I would mention that I payed about $15 for my first 2 lb hard cheese mold with follower. Served me very well. A kadova mould is a bit out of my price range right now but $15 I can handle.

I see that thecheesemaker.com also has a Camembert mould for $14: http://www.thecheesemaker.com/products/Camembert-and-Brie-Moulds.html (http://www.thecheesemaker.com/products/Camembert-and-Brie-Moulds.html) shipping included of course. I have some moulds I made out of reused food grade containers (my two brie moulds are home made).
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 01, 2012, 12:00:45 AM
Well, I am happy to report that the two bries I started several weeks ago are really starting to soften up. I decided to take a sample slice out to see the progress. Definitely coming along nicely! Nice creamy flavor- near the rind it has that really nice mellow brie taste. The inner part is still a bit underripe but I think another week or so, they should be golden.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 01, 2012, 02:17:39 AM
Any pics of your brie mightyMouse?   :D

Also, can anyone post links of studies showing PVC is of concern?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on December 02, 2012, 09:16:14 AM
Look, I just think that selling PVC moulds for cheesemaking is downright irresponsible. They are not good either because the size and weeping hole patterns are wrong, but if that's what someone is willing to have just to save money, why buy it online? You can save more by just going to the nearest hardware store and cuting your own PVC pipe. In my opinion, if the cost of a proper purpose-built French-made mould that you will keep forever is around the cost of milk it takes to fill it once or twice, it is totally worth it and is rather cheap in the grand scheme of things. It is also safe and works great so it's worth the small investment.
I see that thecheesemaker.com also has a Camembert mould for $14: [url]http://www.thecheesemaker.com/products/Camembert-and-Brie-Moulds.html[/url] ([url]http://www.thecheesemaker.com/products/Camembert-and-Brie-Moulds.html[/url]) shipping included of course. I have some moulds I made out of reused food grade containers (my two brie moulds are home made).

Too expensive, as I said above, I sell them for $8.99. Mine are made at the same factory but are proper Normendie size which is actually a bit bigger. I can double check but I think they are Ø115mm diameter by 110mm height.

"Dairythene" by the way is just a food-grade polypropylene.  There's nothing special in it for dairy applications, it's just a trade name.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 02, 2012, 06:19:13 PM
Any pics of your brie mightyMouse?   :D

Also, can anyone post links of studies showing PVC is of concern?

My camera has been out of commission but hopefully I can get some in the near future. I'll try to.

Regarding PVC. I do not know of any studies off the top of my head. I know that if you google search it you get many links to articles suggesting its not the best thing for you. Perhaps some of them have sources listed that would give you what you are after. (One of my first stops is usually Wikipedia. Often the cited sources give pretty good leads.)
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Al Lewis on December 02, 2012, 07:10:19 PM
Poly Vinyl Chloride or PVC can transmit tastes into your cheese.  You have to be careful when selecting a material for a cheese mold.  Delrin, or acetal plastic, contains a high amount of formaldehyde which can also be released under heat.  Your best bet is to stick to the Dairythene or stainless steel.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: iratherfly on December 03, 2012, 02:10:43 AM
I remember that the French government about 15 years ago pulled Barbie off the shelves because it was made with PVC and kids were sucking on it and aside from cancer and migraines they were developing a strange skin disorder. PVC was also in the barbie clothing. They pressured Mattel to remove all PVC out of the toys. Next thing you know, Adidas, Puma and Nike shoes have a PVC-FREE symbol on the box and labels...
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 03, 2012, 09:52:36 PM
I remember that the French government about 15 years ago pulled Barbie off the shelves because it was made with PVC and kids were sucking on it and aside from cancer and migraines they were developing a strange skin disorder. PVC was also in the barbie clothing. They pressured Mattel to remove all PVC out of the toys. Next thing you know, Adidas, Puma and Nike shoes have a PVC-FREE symbol on the box and labels...

I saw a documentary a few years ago that looked at things containing lead. Among those items containing lead (as in, levels which could be detected using a basic $5 lead detector kid from a hardware store) were several children's toys including a Dora the Explorer toy for young children. What the heck would ever convince people that such a thing is a good idea?!

Even worse, when I took a class on basic nuclear physics, our instructor was kind of a radiation freak. He had a collection of "household items from hell". Basic houseful items which contained detectable radioactive material. Every day he would bring in things like salad bowls dyed with Uranium paint, and camera lenses coated with Iridium. He would start his Geiger counter at the start of lecture- at the end he would tell us the total collected reading. Scared me enough to go out and get my own Geiger counter!
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 03, 2012, 09:59:30 PM
Speak of the devil: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/business/02toy.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/business/02toy.html?_r=0)
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 04, 2012, 11:55:40 AM
You really shouldn't be using PVC; it should never come in contact with food.  Frankly, a commercial creamery-grade, food-safe Brie hoop, imported from Europe - costs less than the milk of a single Brie -and can be used daily for 15 years. (not to mention it gives you proper drainage speed and makes a beautiful cheese). Isn't it worth it?

All the water pipes in my house are PVC.  If it's safe for water--and water does stand in the pipes for hours at a time--why would it be unsafe for cheese?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: bbracken677 on December 04, 2012, 12:11:09 PM
acidity for one...

Otherwise, that is an excellent question.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 04, 2012, 07:23:49 PM
You really shouldn't be using PVC; it should never come in contact with food.  Frankly, a commercial creamery-grade, food-safe Brie hoop, imported from Europe - costs less than the milk of a single Brie -and can be used daily for 15 years. (not to mention it gives you proper drainage speed and makes a beautiful cheese). Isn't it worth it?

All the water pipes in my house are PVC.  If it's safe for water--and water does stand in the pipes for hours at a time--why would it be unsafe for cheese?

Two thoughts:
1) Perhaps the chemicals in PVC which leach into food are not water soluble (I do not know this I am just throwing out a possible hypothesis), bbracken's idea sounds plausible as well. In general, I would wonder why PVC is considered safe for water but not food (assuming it is- see point 2).
2) Is PVC really still considered safe for potable water lines, or only considered safe for grey/waste water.

Again I do not know the answers to these, they are just questions which I would consider.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 04, 2012, 07:38:30 PM
PVC is considered safe for water. My brother-in-law is a plumber and that's what he uses for standard installations.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Al Lewis on December 04, 2012, 09:07:49 PM
I think you'll find that the PVC water pipes in your house are for the drains and not the feed water.  Those are normally copper or steel to hold the pressure and heat.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 05, 2012, 01:11:14 AM
I took a real quick look on the web, I get the impression that PVC is in fact used for feed water. Types of PVC are used for both cold and hot water in fact.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 05, 2012, 07:30:10 AM
When I moved into my house several years ago, I had to have the galvanized pipe from the water lines replaced.  They used all PVC pipe.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Tiffany on December 05, 2012, 04:31:44 PM
So many interesting arguments for this crazy topic I started.   Yep its my fault.  I have eaten cheese made in it with no bad flavor.  I too checked with my BIL, and he too said pvc for water.  And some water remains in the pipes at all times, so if there is any leaching happening, you all better quit drinking water from the tap.  We had our water tested for the milk processing facility, also thru pvc, and it tested negative for everything. No lead, no chemicals, no nothing cept a little iron from the shallow well.  We passed with flying colors so.... I guess this was the thought behind the pvc.  It clear many of you disagree.  I will eventually get the other molds, but only because they are lighter and thinner.  I matched the hole pattern and my cheese drains real well.  Sorry.... Guess I'm cheap and irresponsible....
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 05, 2012, 06:51:29 PM
So many interesting arguments for this crazy topic I started.   Yep its my fault.  I have eaten cheese made in it with no bad flavor.  I too checked with my BIL, and he too said pvc for water.  And some water remains in the pipes at all times, so if there is any leaching happening, you all better quit drinking water from the tap.  We had our water tested for the milk processing facility, also thru pvc, and it tested negative for everything. No lead, no chemicals, no nothing cept a little iron from the shallow well.  We passed with flying colors so.... I guess this was the thought behind the pvc.  It clear many of you disagree.  I will eventually get the other molds, but only because they are lighter and thinner.  I matched the hole pattern and my cheese drains real well.  Sorry.... Guess I'm cheap and irresponsible....

I'm glad you got it tested, because now I have testing and not just logic behind my decision. :D  I guess I'm cheap, too, but $2.25 per mold rather than $6-$8 plus shipping...  And the cost of an occasional drill bit.

BTW, what does "BIL" stand for?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 05, 2012, 09:33:53 PM
Well..... to be perfectly fair,
Lets assume for the sake of argument that PVC is in fact safe for drinking water. That does not necessarily mean that it is safe for food. From what I have read- the FDA and others have concluded that PVC is non-reactive with water. Chemically speaking, food is much much different than water. You have the potential there for much more complicated chemical reactions (Also keep in mind, there are many different types of PVC- some more dangerous than others, I would hope the kind used in plumbing is safer but one would need to check for sure that they are using a type that is "ok").
I am not sure this topic is as simple as concluding it's safe for cheese since its safe for water.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: bbracken677 on December 06, 2012, 08:16:13 AM
Also...consider that most water supplies are neutral or near neutral pH-wise, whereas foods range from very acidic to fairly basic.

In the case of cheeses they range from mildly acidic to fairly acidic. 
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 06, 2012, 08:26:39 AM
True, but most cheeses are shielded from the PVC with cheesecloth.  Others like camembert are in there minimally.  If the acidity of the cheese were reacting with the PVC, I'd expect to see pitting.  I haven't.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: BobE102330 on December 06, 2012, 10:45:37 AM
Below are a couple of links that came up in a Google search for "PVC food contact".  I read through several of them, and it seems that there is nothing inherently unsafe about PVC in contact with food, although there may be some questions about certain additives.  Saran Wrap was originally PVC, now it is LDPE, which is not as effective a barrier as PVC.  Another case of a speculative "environmental benefit" that makes the  product not work as well.  [/political rant off]

That said, I would much rather buy a known safe mold at twice Yoav's price than hack up a piece of sewer pipe with unknown additives in an attempt to save a couple of bucks.  The molds I bought will last many years, so the amortized cost will be almost nothing per cheese.  I understand sticker shock when getting started making cheese and trying to keep the cost reasonable until you figure out if you really like making cheese and the results are worth your time.  My first hard cheeses were pressed in a cheesemaking.com basket mold with a plate follower.  Made for odd shapes, but got me going successfully. 

Now you have my two cents, if it is worth that much. 

http://www.pvc.org/en/faqs/7 (http://www.pvc.org/en/faqs/7)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_wrap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_wrap)

Aside - I've placed a couple of orders with Yoav, he has been a pleasure to deal with and a fountain of knowledge.  That is prices are the best I've found is a nice bonus on top of supporting a guy who gives so much to the forum.  I am not connected to him in any way other than being an appreciative customer.  This forum is a no shill zone.  ;)
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: rosawoodsii on December 06, 2012, 02:21:19 PM
Thanks for the links.  After reading them, it sounds like there are problems with the plasticizers used with PVC in making film, but that the solid PVC is perfectly safe  The biggest problem I have with PVC is that it's so thick. 
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: linuxboy on December 06, 2012, 03:17:45 PM
Issue with PVC is primarily in impurities and in unpolymerized vinyl chloride. If it has reacted sufficiently during polymerization, it should be food safe. It's challenging to know if what you're getting is safe without testing. Other materials such as HDPE and PP or blends inherently do better in terms of food safety because of the manufacturing process and raw material input. With the price difference being very small, there should be no reason to use PVC in cheesemaking when there are better alternatives.

water supply is a different issue, conditions are way different. I don't know what everyone does for cleaning, but I at times use COP tanks or caustic soda, and I sure wouldn't want to use them with PVC.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 08, 2012, 02:42:34 PM
Thanks for the links.  After reading them, it sounds like there are problems with the plasticizers used with PVC in making film, but that the solid PVC is perfectly safe  The biggest problem I have with PVC is that it's so thick.

Ummm,
That's quite a definitive conclusion to come to based on a wikipedia entry on plastic wrap and a page which appears to have been funded/influenced by the vinyl industry and provides- as far as I see, no citations to any real scientific studies.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: botanist on December 10, 2012, 02:37:09 AM
So here are some scientific citations looking at the migration of antioxidants from plastics (including PVC) into food oils and fat simulants (cheese does have fat, right?).

Begley, 1997, attached
During the 1970s K. Figge (Figge 1972, 1980) studied the migration of antioxidants from HDPE, PVC and
PS into food oils and fat simulants. These studies showed that the migration to the oils and fat simulants was predictable. The migration of the antioxidant butylated hydroxy toluene (BHT) and two hydrocarbons (Ci8H38 and C23H66) from polyolefins (LDPE, HDPE, PP, and polyethylene with 5% and 13% vinyl acetate copolymer (EVA)) into heptane, water, ethanol/water solutions, «-octanol, rc-octadecane, corn oil, HB307, tributyrin, and trioctanoin at temperatures from 24 to 60°C was studied (Chang et al. 1982). They concluded from these
studies that migration of antioxidants is predictable. The amount of migration is controlled by diffusion
through the polymer according to Fick's 2nd Law and diffusion follows Arrhenius type behaviour. In
another extensive study (A. D. Little 1983) the migration of BHT, Irganox 1010, styrene, an organo-tin stabilizer and the plasticizer dioctyl adipate were measured from HDPE, LDPE, PS, impact PS, PVC and EVA into many food simulating liquids and foods. From this study it can be concluded that migration is predictable and the amount migrating to food will always be less than to the food simulant, especially food oil.

attached -- Ducruet et al, 2007  SORPTION OF AROMA COMPOUNDS IN PET AND PVC
DURING THE STORAGE OF A STRAWBERRY SYRUP

Vinyl chloride in water (attached):  Vinyl chloride is primarily of concern as a potential contaminant from some grades of  PVC pipe and is best controlled by specification of material quality.

I. Steinera, L. Scharfa, F. Fialab & J. Washüttla . Volume 15, Issue 7, 1998, pages 812-817.  Migration of di‐(2‐ethylhexyl) phthalate from PVC child articles into saliva and saliva simulant.

Fantoni L., Simoneau C. (2003) European survey on the contamination of homogenised baby food by epoxidised soybean oil from plasticised PVC gaskets. Food Additives and Contaminants: Part A: Chemistry, Analysis, Control, Exposure & Risk Assessment 20(11) 1087-1096

Z. G. Tsvetanova and E. J. Hoekstra. 2012. Assessment of microbial growth potential of PVC flexible tubing in contact with drinking water. Water Science & Technology: Water Supply Vol 12 No 4 pp 489–495

Simoneau C., Hannaert P. (authors), Sarigiannis D. (editor) (2009) Effect of the Nature and Concentration of Phthalates on Their Migration from PVC Materials Under Dynamic Simulated Conditions of Mouthing. Publication Office of the European Union, Luxembourg, JRC Scientific and Technical Report, EUR 23813 EN.  This is about toys

http://www.foodsmart.govt.nz/whats-in-our-food/chemicals-nutrients-additives-toxins/plastic-packaging/ (http://www.foodsmart.govt.nz/whats-in-our-food/chemicals-nutrients-additives-toxins/plastic-packaging/)

Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) is heavy, stiff and transparent and often used with added plasticisers such as phthalates or adipates. Common uses of PVC with plasticisers include commercial-grade cling films for over-wrap of trays in supermarkets and filled rolls at delicatessens.
From commercial cling films made from PVC – DEHA: diethylhexyl adipate is a food-compatible phthalate plasticiser and tiny amounts may migrate into fatty food (such as meat or cheese), especially with heating. DEHP (diethylhexyl phthalate) is another plasticiser that has been of concern because it can migrate, and for that reason it is not used in food-related products in USA. It has been used as jar or bottle seals and lid inserts of bottles, spreads and juices and may be in printing ink for labels.

I, too, thought that PVC was safe for cheese molds since it is used for water intake into residences and businesses.  Glad I don't use that!
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 10, 2012, 05:26:03 PM
So here are some scientific citations looking at the migration of antioxidants from plastics (including PVC) into food oils and fat simulants (cheese does have fat, right?).

I like you! :)

(Are you really a Botanist by the way?)

<Fires a cheese toward botanist>
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: bbracken677 on December 10, 2012, 05:33:00 PM

 (cheese does have fat, right?).


Heck no!  It's like calories in donuts...once you break the donut, all the calories escape...so all you have to do is break it first, wait a few seconds and then eat!  This same approach works with cheese...break it first, wait a few seconds and then have at it...all the fat has escaped into the ozone layer!!

 :)
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 10, 2012, 06:52:51 PM

Heck no!  It's like calories in donuts...once you break the donut, all the calories escape...so all you have to do is break it first, wait a few seconds and then eat!  This same approach works with cheese...break it first, wait a few seconds and then have at it...all the fat has escaped into the ozone layer!!

 :)

He he, sounds like the bill payer's motto- it ain't a bill if it ain't open!
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: bbracken677 on December 10, 2012, 07:31:46 PM
What's a bill?   haha
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Al Lewis on December 10, 2012, 08:01:59 PM
What's a bill?   haha

A ducks nose. LMAO
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: botanist on December 11, 2012, 01:28:49 AM
So here are some scientific citations looking at the migration of antioxidants from plastics (including PVC) into food oils and fat simulants (cheese does have fat, right?).


I like you! :)

(Are you really a Botanist by the way?)

<Fires a cheese toward botanist>


Thanks for the cheese!  Yes, I have a Masters and PhD in Botany and my profession is horticultural research in tree fruit and nut crops.  So I am definitely into information gathering of a scientific bent.  The latest update on food safety of PVC:

http://www.packaginglaw.com/2546_.shtml (http://www.packaginglaw.com/2546_.shtml)
http://www.packaginglaw.com/3391_.shtml (http://www.packaginglaw.com/3391_.shtml)
http://www.packaginglaw.com/3186_.shtml (http://www.packaginglaw.com/3186_.shtml)
http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm260478.htm (http://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm260478.htm)
http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/PVC_Policies_Around_The_World.html (http://www.chej.org/pvcfactsheets/PVC_Policies_Around_The_World.html)
http://consumerproductslaw.com/page/1/consumer-products-law.jsp;jsessionid=322E7323A91A46C530566124675213E8?articleId=1209 (http://consumerproductslaw.com/page/1/consumer-products-law.jsp;jsessionid=322E7323A91A46C530566124675213E8?articleId=1209)

NSF International (National Sanitation Foundation) approves Schedule 40 Type 1 pipe for potable water only
PVC Materials:
The material used in the manufacture of the pipe shall be domestically produced rigid polyvinyl chloride (PVC) compound, Type I Grade I, with a Cell Classification of 12454 as defined in ASTM D1784, trade name designation H707 PVC. This compound shall be white or gray in color as specified, and shall be approved by NSF International for use with potable water (NSF Std 61).
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: mightyMouse.tar.gz on December 11, 2012, 01:42:40 AM
Thanks for the cheese!  Yes, I have a Masters and PhD in Botany and my profession is horticultural research in tree fruit and nut crops.  So I am definitely into information gathering of a scientific bent.  The latest update on food safety of PVC:

Very cool, 
Botany is a really neat discipline. Part of why I asked is I am acquainted with some botanists up at UC Davis.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 11, 2012, 03:51:35 AM
A quick question...

So CHEJ is simply a self assembled group with no scientific or government regulation/backing and can make any claims they wish without any peer reviewed articles that I could find?

Just asking.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Tiarella on December 11, 2012, 10:54:30 AM
My big question is whether there are phthalates in cheese molds such as those made from "dairythene" or whatever that name is.  I do try hard to avoid exposure although don't spend a lot of worry...just do my best to make decisions that limit my exposure to endocrine disrupting compounds, knowing full well there's no way to really avoid them.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Al Lewis on December 11, 2012, 11:27:19 AM
I think the bottom line here is that, if you don't know what is in the material, you probably should not use it for food.  I would especially apply this to anything acidic or heated, such as cheese curd.  I'll stick to stainless steel and Dairylene molds.  You guys do whatever you like.  ;)
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: botanist on December 12, 2012, 12:28:16 AM

Very cool, 
Botany is a really neat discipline. Part of why I asked is I am acquainted with some botanists up at UC Davis.

Who would they be mightyMouse?  I see you are in Calif too--whereabouts?
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: botanist on December 12, 2012, 12:54:07 AM
My big question is whether there are phthalates in cheese molds such as those made from "dairythene" or whatever that name is.  I do try hard to avoid exposure although don't spend a lot of worry...just do my best to make decisions that limit my exposure to endocrine disrupting compounds, knowing full well there's no way to really avoid them.

Tiarella, from the little bit of 'research' I've done on this subject because of this topic, I see that Europe and the US are pretty much the toughest on the standards (now don't get crazy on me, any of you folks from Down Under, just because I didn't mention you--I have only had a quick look-see and that didn't turn up anything from NZ or Oz--both of which I LOVE!).  Some of the links I gave show how bad much of Asia can be (no, I'm not beating anyone up here, folks, just citing what I found).

The molds from places like France are probably among the safest, just because the EU is actually much tougher, in general, that the US is for chemicals used in crops, science applications, drugs, etc.  There are lots of ag chemicals we use here that the EU no longer allows.
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 12, 2012, 01:27:59 AM

I see that Europe and the US are pretty much the toughest on the standards (now don't get crazy on me, any of you folks from Down Under, just because I didn't mention you--I have only had a quick look-see and that didn't turn up anything from NZ or Oz--both of which I LOVE!).  Some of the links I gave show how bad much of Asia can be (no, I'm not beating anyone up here, folks, just citing what I found).

The molds from places like France are probably among the safest, just because the EU is actually much tougher, in general, that the US is for chemicals used in crops, science applications, drugs, etc.  There are lots of ag chemicals we use here that the EU no longer allows.

I actually looked at making a 6 1/2" mold from pvc and found it was just as cheap to buy a "proper" mold from my local home-brew shop without the hassle of drilling all those holes.
I am glad he is a little out of my as I now have the 6 1/5" I used for my Jarlsberg and Cheddar, a 5" (which I haven't used but I saw it and liked it's dimensions) and a Ricotta basket and cup.
My last visit there he said "here comes my best cheese-making customer"
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: colinjfrost on December 20, 2012, 10:12:54 PM
Does anyone know where i can get a traditional 3 part coulommierr hold in australia
Title: Re: Brie hoop vs. beaker mold
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on December 21, 2012, 12:05:09 AM
Does anyone know where i can get a traditional 3 part coulommierr hold in australia


I would ask http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/pages/Maitland.html (http://www.countrybrewer.com.au/pages/Maitland.html)

I don't know anyone else locally carrying any cheesemaking equipment.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.