CheeseForum.org » Forum

CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => AGED LACTIC ACID COAGULATED - Normally Whey Removed => Topic started by: JeffHamm on October 29, 2011, 05:49:26 PM

Title: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 29, 2011, 05:49:26 PM
Hi,

Well, my cheese cave is pretty full, so no room for another full wheel, but I figure I could squeeze a small camemebert type thing in somewhere.  So, I decided to experiment a bit.  I've never made a lactic curd type cheese.  And, it's been almost a year since I've made a mold ripened cheese.  I decided to just put together a make protocol and see what happens. 

Here's my experimental procedure; currently I'm at step 6 (the milk is in the hotwater cupboard), so the rest is open to adjustment depending upon how things go.  I considered adding a drop of rennet diluted in water, but decided I wanted to go wtih just lactic coagulation since I've never done that before.  We'll see.  Anyway,  if anyone sees any idiot moves listed, let me know.  I sort of put this together while getting ready to go shopping, so didn't really have time to research it properly. 

2 L Farmhouse creamline milk
1 ice cube buttermilk
Scrapings of mold from store bought cam
1 drop rennet in 1 tbls water salt

1)   Melt ice cube of starter in some milk, place in hot water cupboard for an hour or so (get it going)
2)   Place scrapings of mold in warm water and mash about until water is a bit cloudy
3)   Warm milk to 25 C (around 11:00 am)
4)   Add starter  milk
5)   Add mold
6)   Cover, and place in hot water cupboard
6b)           After 7-8 hours, add 1 drop of rennet diluted in 1 tbls water and mix in (6:00 pm) NOTE: my rennet is 750 IMCU strength, probably could have diluted in 2 tbls and then just add 1 tbls worth for 1/2 drop
7)   Wait until curd forms and separates from whey (12-24 hours)
8)   Ladle curd into mold (6:00 am next day)
9)   Drain, flipping every 2-3 of hours or so until night, then drain overnight
Flipped at 7:30 am, 10:30 am, 4:30pm, 8:00 pm. (was 452g at this point)
10)   Salt each face and sides of the cheese smooth any holes
11)   Place in cave (6:00 am 2nd day since make; cave temp 10 C; weight now 402 g), flip daily, until mold covers the cheese
12)   Wrap and age 2 – 4 weeks?

P.S. I've updated  the make to include the fact I added some rennet
P.P.S. updated some details as the make progresses
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: linuxboy on October 29, 2011, 06:41:42 PM
Pay very careful attention to maintaining ambient temp during ripening. With a full lactic curd, you must use excellent milk with high solids, and culture that contributes to a thick set. You must also hot your pH targets exactly, to start draining at 4.55-4.7.

Also, no real need to wrap. I would keep eating them as they ripen starting with day 7, and then make more when I run out. Also, be careful during salting. If dry salting, make sure surface dries out so that the PC can bloom early with an even coat. Good luck :)
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 30, 2011, 12:21:09 AM
Thanks linuxboy,

I'm just using store bought, pasturised, creamline (at least) milk, and my culture is some ripened buttermilk which I've only just started using recently.  So, after about 7 hours I had a peek and things were still "fluid" though there were some solids forming.  Having a look at the recommendations (best quality milk, thicksetting culture, etc) I decided to add 1 drop rennet in a tablespoon of water and mix.  Will see how it turns out tomorrow.  I'll only get one of these cheeses as the curds are likely to fit into a single mold.  Hmmmm, I have some single serve yogurt cups I could try out for mini-cheeses.  Will see what I have in the way of curd tomorrow before deciding.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: linuxboy on October 30, 2011, 01:24:11 AM
This is also what I do and add a little rennet. Making a full lactic cheese is sort of a holy grail. It takes a very nuanced understanding and precise control because the curd is fragile. What happens is that as the casein loses that electric charge and comes out of suspension, it will start to form a curd. With time and more acidity, the rate of casein agglomeration increases, and instead of having an even matrix, you get these globs of tightly knit micelles, and then the micelle superclusters bond together. The end result is a curd that cannot hold moisture or fat well, and becomes rather grainy and weak. With even a little rennet, you achieve semi-lactic set and your curd is stronger. You can manipulate the texture by adjusting the point at which you add rennet and the amount you add.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 30, 2011, 12:59:10 PM
Well, at 6:00 am the next day, we seem to have curd formation and separation.  Things taste very tangy, and without a pH meter, that's the best I can do. So, I've started ladeling these into a small mold that should hold the lot.  Mind you, it's full at the moment and there's still some to go (last two photos).  The amount of curd is so different this way, and it's very soft.  But, it does hold together when I place it in the mold, so I have hopes this will work.

Pleased with this experiment so far.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on October 30, 2011, 02:27:09 PM
Does this method produce lower yeild then semi lactic cheeses? (which uses a tiny bit of rennet)
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 30, 2011, 02:57:21 PM
Hi Tomer1,

Can't help you there I'm afraid.  I've never tried anything like this before, and it was a sort of spur of the moment decision.  I changed my mind and went "semi-lactic" and added a drop of rennet.  I'm curious to see how much the final cheese weighs.  It's draining quite a bit, which is good, and slowly compressing under it's own weight.  My wife will flip it for me around mid-day, and I'll give it another short flip when I get home from work before the all night drain. 

Hmmm, I wonder.  If I had saved the whey that drained, I could have frozen that and made ice cubes for starter.  Would that contain active PC spores too, or would they not survive the iceing?  I know you can keep the spores in the freezer in a dry state, but does the fluid form crystals that damage the spores? 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: linuxboy on October 30, 2011, 03:02:51 PM
Quote
I could have frozen that and made ice cubes for starter.  Would that contain active PC spores too
Yes
Quote
fluid form crystals that damage the spores
Depends on speed of freezing and storage temp. Faster freeze = small crystals.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on October 30, 2011, 06:04:05 PM
use liquid nitrogen if you have some laying around :)
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 30, 2011, 07:07:42 PM
Thanks again!

Hmmm, liquid nitrogen... where did I put that?  :)

Oh, for salting, I was going to just sprinkle some on each face once it was out of the mold.  Probably something in the vincinity of 1/8 tsp per side. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: ellenspn on October 30, 2011, 07:14:00 PM
Liquid nitrogen good one. Just don't store it in a 2 l pop bottle ;)
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 30, 2011, 11:55:18 PM
Hi,

Well, it's been draining for almost 12 hours, and it now weighs in at 452g (so just over 20% yeild).  It's quite a bit thicker then I had anticipated, and unless it drains a great deal more over the next 12 hours, I would make two cheeses of this size in the future.  Here's a photo of it still in the mold with a fairly standard sized coffee mug for scale.

Having now taken some rough measurements it" 8 cm diam and 6.5 cm high, so a density of 1.38 g/cc. 

Oh, and one other thing, I didn't add any CaCl2 to this.  Does one normally add it to a lactic or semi-lactic cheese make?  I was thinking that the CaCl2 was to aid the rennet, and since I was planning on using any at first I didn't bother.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on October 31, 2011, 01:05:10 PM
Hi,

Ok, so at 6:30 am ish on Tuesday (started the make on Sunday) this cheese finished it's draining (I think) and is now salted and in the cave.  I just sprinkled a decent coating of salt over the entire surface (ends and sides).  It weighed in at 402g when it went in the cave.  It has a very different feel to a pressed cheese, but that's not too surprising.  Very soft, filled in a few holes, etc.  This could end up quite nice, or go south quickly.  Will see.

Oh yah, I had to adjust the colour in the photo as it was too yellow again.  This looks a bit graying, but the curds are pure white at the moment.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 05, 2011, 01:30:15 PM
Just a quick update.  This one is still holding its shape well, and the paste is still soft, so changing it in and out of the cave to flip requires care.  However, today I spotted some white mold bloom for the first time.  It's appearing in a few places, looks good and fuzzy.  Yah! 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 07, 2011, 03:35:10 PM
The mold is progressing, but not full coverage yet.  It's now 10 days since I started.  The temperatue is about 10 C.  Slowly getting there.  Will try and get a decent photo later today to show its progress.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Gürkan Yeniçeri on November 07, 2011, 09:11:27 PM
Thumbs up to you Jeff, how about also adding some B. Linens into this equation
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 07, 2011, 10:31:49 PM
Hi Gürkan,

That might be good too.  Next time I make this I'll make two cheeses rather than one tall one, which I suspect will not quite ripen fully.  Of course, that may end up being a nice result too, so I'm certainly going to keep an open mind on tihs.  I'm not at all familiar with semi-lactic cheese making, and this one is sort of by the seat of my pants, but it does seem to be going ok so far.  Here's its current state of mould developement.

Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Boofer on November 08, 2011, 09:45:29 AM
Oooh, fuzzy!  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 08, 2011, 01:19:01 PM
Yes, it's fuzzying up quite nicely.  Not as much cover on the top and bottom as the sides though, but some is starting to spread.  Once I have full coverage, I'll wrap it and put it in the regular fridge to slow the ripening process.  It's quite large, so if it ripens quickly it will just melt into a heap.

I quite like how this cheese is progressing.  Also, almost everything came from a grocery store.  The culture was just ripened buttermilk, the milk was just store bought, and the mould culture came from a store bought Cam that was on special (and very tasty on a bagette!), and the mold I used to form the cheese was also from the grocery store (a tupperware type container that is a jar with a little basket in it; to store things like pickles or fruit in syrup).  The only thing that wasn't actually purchased from a grocery store was the drop of rennet, but since you can pick up rennet at the grocery store too, the whole thing can be made by anyone without any special equipment at all. 

Of course, if it turns out shockingly horrible, perhaps the above isn't really enough to recommend it? :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: zenith1 on November 08, 2011, 07:06:14 PM
Jeff-what nice fuzz you have!
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 13, 2011, 10:45:16 PM
I've wrapped this in paper and foil today.  It's now about 346g.  My parents are comming to visit in about 10 days, so I'll age it until their arrival and then we'll have the unveiling.  Could be interesting! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Mix spanish cheese on November 15, 2011, 03:41:00 AM
i´m doing one experiment ,becoselinuxboy told me uht milk can coagulate by rennet ,i have to use lactic metod


i leave all night the milk with two doses of rennet and enough vinager to get curd or something

after a night , in the morning , is soft yogurt and i want to put hot temp again to put more vinager

we see what happend
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 15, 2011, 01:47:39 PM
So, how is your experiment comming along?  Did you get some curds?  If it didn't form a single big lump of curd, but just a thick yogurt, you could drain it through cheesecloth until it was the texture you wanted.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 24, 2011, 10:44:44 PM
This one, in the foil, is now 344g.  Will be opening it up tomorrow or the next day to sample.  Having a big family get together in two (my parents comming to visit so we're all getting together with my wife's family to have a big feed!) and it will be consumed then, but it may get sampled tomorrow.  You know, just to make sure it's ok and all! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on November 25, 2011, 09:48:52 AM
I've got another batch going, this time with PC instead of PR.
I think ive nailed the right protocol this time, gone predrain for 2-4 hours before molding.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 25, 2011, 10:35:58 AM
I suspect the pre-draining will help remove some of the moisture.  Let me know how it goes.  Are you useing cheesecloth?  Let me know how much curd loss you get from it sticking to the cloth. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on November 25, 2011, 11:09:11 AM
I use a fabric with a tigher weeve then disposable cloth.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Boofer on November 25, 2011, 11:40:25 AM
I suspect the pre-draining will help remove some of the moisture.  Let me know how it goes.  Are you useing cheesecloth?  Let me know how much curd loss you get from it sticking to the cloth. 

- Jeff
I think when I do something like this again, I'll use Plyban (plastic cheesecloth). The curds don't adhere to it. My Esrom #2 showed me that. Good stuff.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on November 26, 2011, 12:03:33 AM
Who manufactures it? 

My latest batch is now draining, Im much happier with the firmness of the curds this time.
Drained at PH 4.66 and hung the bag to drain. The whey went stright to the bean soup im making :)
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Boofer on November 26, 2011, 02:08:10 AM
Who manufactures it? 
I don't know. Here's where I got mine (http://www.cheesemaking.com/store/p/73-Cheesecloth-Disposable.html).

It's probably available elsewhere.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on November 26, 2011, 03:04:34 AM
After 3 hours of pre-draining I got 630 grams of high moisture cheese from 2 liters of milk.
I didnt have any measurable amount of cheese stuck to the cloth so there was no lost there.

I salted it to 1.5% and molded it, it let it dry for 2-3 days before I move it to the cave.

Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: anutcanfly on November 26, 2011, 12:05:58 PM
Darn!  Thats much cheaper than mine!  I got some thru Hoeggers.  Didn't realized that disposable cheesecloth was the same as plyban.  Just used it for the first time yesterday and I have to say it really works great! I used to have to struggle to get the cheese to drop free of the mold in the morning.  Came right out... doesn't stick to anything!
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 26, 2011, 12:33:21 PM
Sounds like good stuff.

I've unwrapped this one.  It now weights 338g.  We'll be tasting it today.  Now that it's warming up I can feel it softening up under the surface.  High hopes for this one.

- Jeff

Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on November 26, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
Are you using a spacial bloomy wrap or just tin foil?
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 26, 2011, 02:04:15 PM
Hi Tomer1,

I just used some baking paper and tinfoil.  The baking paper got a bit damp, so it probably should have been changed a few times early on.  Still, it mostly came off in one piece.  :)

Here's a better photo.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 27, 2011, 01:08:57 AM
Hi,

And the verdict is in, and it is good!  I cut into this today at the family get together, and it was, as I hoped, quite runny around the sides but still a nice velvety soft cheese inside.  The runny bits get mopped up in bread, and the rind was very edible, and the interior paste was smooth and very nice.  It was nicely ripened, with a very earthy/mushroomy flavour, but it had not amoniated.  It had peaked.  I'm sure if I put it in my regular fridge to slow down the ripening it wouldn't have run, but I was hoping it would just for the dramatic effect.  Anyway, this is such an easy, and quick, cheese to make that I might do a few up for Christmas presents.  Nice.

- Jeff

P.S. I told everyone it's Chaource, as "Jeff's Experimental SemiLactic Cheese" wouldn't fit on the strip of paper! :)
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Boofer on November 28, 2011, 01:36:28 AM
P.S. I told everyone it's Chaource, as "Jeff's Experimental SemiLactic Cheese" wouldn't fit on the strip of paper! :)
Works for me!  :)  Looks great. Kudos.

I lost track...how long from make to cut?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on November 28, 2011, 10:59:49 PM
Thanks Boofer.  It was 4 weeks from make to cut.  Seems like a really good level of aging, for me at least.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Boofer on November 29, 2011, 01:39:50 AM
Yeah, four weeks seemed like a feasible schedule.

Then I'll retry my adjusted Tilsit recipe.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 12, 2011, 06:41:29 AM
(http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/9130/dsc0087kd.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/864/dsc0087kd.jpg/)

(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/4079/dsc0095em.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/dsc0095em.jpg/)

Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 12, 2011, 11:42:58 AM
Beautiful Tomer1!

No slipskin on your at all.  How long did you age it?  Did you shift it into a regular fridge at some point to slow the ripening?  And, are those walnuts I see in there? 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 12, 2011, 12:52:12 PM
Visually its great, very slight melting under the skin at the "corners".
They are walnuts.

I have absulutly no idea what went wrong with this one. 
Despite not leaving the closed ripening box it picked up an off smell from the cave, I left my humidity towel for too long without change and it turned into "wet socks".

It had this musky,damp smell which was stuck despite airating the fridge (and getting rid of the smell).
I left it for 4-5 hours at room temp before eating.

It too had a bitterness to it despite keeping my cave at around 12c and not apearent growth of geo (which I thought is the explaination to my last cam being bitter,it got over run by geo).

Culture was probat 222 , a mixed messo type simmiler to FD.

Ive got two more PC lactics which I unmolded today and put into the ripening box.  I used some lemon pill in one just because I had this lemon in the kitchen looking at me funny  >:D   

I really want to solve this bitterness issue.  :-\
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 12, 2011, 01:48:11 PM
Oh yes, I see now in the far corner.  Still, hardly a thing compared to my flood. 

Not sure what could be causing you the bitterness.  I made the cheese in this thread using ripened buttermilk (1 ice cube worth) as the starter in 2 L of store bought pasturised milk (creamline).  It's a high fat milk as well (4 or 4.5% I think).  I only used 1 drop of 750 IMCU strength rennet (microbial), added after about 6 or 8 hours ripening time.

My ambient temperature when draining is about 20 C, and my cave is kept around 10 C.

For the blue version, I used creme freche as the starter (1 or 2 tbls, which I put in warm milk for about 30 minutes to an hour to get it going). 

Aged both around 4 weeks from make day to eating.

Don't know if there's anything in those details that might help.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: anutcanfly on December 13, 2011, 11:47:42 AM
I'm very suspicious that the wet sock smell and the bitterness are linked.  I've noticed several cheese of mine that were moist, and developed that smell, also became bitter.   :(  If I catch it quick I rub it down with an acidic salt wash, it's fine...mostly.  I think I need to change the way I store cheeses in my fridge.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 13, 2011, 01:32:43 PM
Maybe the smell caught on while I was drining it in the fridge (The ripening box was left open) because the blue lactic which was sealed didnt exhibit that aweful stuff.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: iratherfly on December 14, 2011, 12:33:26 AM
How much geo did you put in it? the bitterness is related to accelerated proteolysis - results of early geo. It's a tricky balance between drying speed, moisture control and temp.  It also seems as if you interior of the cheese has never aged.  How long was this age? What temp?

Best practice is tiny tiny amount of geo and more PC then geo. Keep at low 80% moisture for the first 3-4 days (counting from when you remove them from the drying rack to the aging container). Then allow the geo to grow slowly at 13°F or so at 90% humidity (day 5-6). By day 7 PC should be popping. Be vigilant of the skin from now on. If it starts to soften up or wrinkle prematurely, move it to the bottom shelf of your refrigerator to slow down the geo. You can move it back to aging in a few days if the problem resolved itself, or just let it age all the way in the fridge. Don't open before day 14 (my suggestion). Expect it to be ready in the fridge around day 21 or so.  If this keeps happening, consider changing the geo strain you are using to something less aggressive. 
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 14, 2011, 02:00:02 AM
Didnt use any geo.
I keep leaving it outside at room temp (14-18c) for an additional day or so to drain after moulding before I carry the mould to the fridge for additional drying at about 80-85% for 3-4 days before popping the lid and uping humidity to the upper 90s.

Temp is 12c, 13f seems a bit drastic I dont want a frozen lolicheese :P

The PC cheese was at around two+ weeks.


Im made some more this weekend, had a taste when flipping today and Im getting the same hints of musky-damp flavour\aroma.

I have no idea what might be causing it.  The bamboo mat maybe?! or possibly that extra day of warmish draining promoting some kind of bacterial activity which I really dont see evident.
 
The fridge smells just fine, I also hung a charcoal odor absorber to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 14, 2011, 12:22:06 PM
Hi Tomer1,

Hmmm, I started mine on a Saturday, and the curds were formed on the Sunday.  They sat at room teperature draining all day Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday morning went into the cave. 

I added mould from a bought camembert, so the mix of mould and strains I can't comment upon.

I did, however, age mine on a plastic needlepoint mat rather than bamboo.  I'm wondering if the moisture from the cheese has kept the bamboo wet and imparted the undesirable flavour and bitterness. 

I don't have a way of measureing my humidity, so I don't know the levels this was at during aging.

- Jeff

P.S. Also, I think I've got a much taller cheese.  You've made a much more disk shape compared to my barrel, at same thing for the blue version.  Perhaps that has something to it.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 14, 2011, 03:29:19 PM
Bingo  ;)

I think its the wood,It is extremly moist. Got a taste of some stuck cheese on the bottom and it is astringent ,almost tannic and I wonder if its the wood or any anti fungal treatment which goes into the wood. (I boil any new mat several times to leech that nasty odor off,whether its for cheese or for acually making sushi)

Im gone re-attemp the blue with 3 liters of milk this time and a larger mold.
YOAV also suggested in the other thread to make it bigger and in a more "rindless" style.

Gone give it one more chance ,other wise im going back to making creamy 90 day stiltons  :P
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 14, 2011, 07:46:32 PM
Sounds like you're onto it.  Given that both the blue and PC version were bitter, it must be something in common.  The prime suspect is now the mat. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: iratherfly on December 17, 2011, 01:37:11 PM
I doubt it's the bamboo. As long as it is clean (no detergent, just scrub with hot water and steam for 10 minutes) -it should be fine. These Bamboo Sushi mats or Mikados are used even at French commercial manufacturers. Really no big deal.  The muskiness could be related maybe to having too much blue culture or even to the effect of a cotton cheesecloth in draining.  Regardless, the final flavor will overcome it.

Have you tried any of my suggestions?  You REALLY need to drain it a lot and mould it by packing it lightly. Additional rind treatment should be sprayed much later or just wrap tightly in foil.  I really suggest to use yeast
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 18, 2011, 05:55:44 AM
No I havent made the blue again yet, by yeast you mean some dry bakers yeast? 

Its apearent that the smell is showing up again in my PC cheese which is currently drying and despite the box left open (with lowish humidity at the 80% area) started developing some white fur.

I wonder if ripening with PC along with the high moisture might be responsible?
Maybe I should alter the make -   mould,dry and then spary with PC?
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: iratherfly on December 18, 2011, 11:43:53 AM
Well, PC wouldn't develop without the high moisture. Building it too fast though may create a problem so you can dry more, reduce temperature and moisture, shorten the cave time and lengthen the refrigerator time -or use a less aggressive PC strain.

For yeast, try KL71 or similar if you can get it. You must have some wine or beer yeasts. These may work too. I am afraid baker's yeast would grow out of control and invite contamination to the cheese. It is very strong, but if all else fails, put in about 1/64th of a teaspoon per 1-2 gallons. I am talking about a few granulates here. That's enough. Perhaps for even distribution you want to first dissolve it in water as you would with calcium/rennet

Just to reiterate, I use 1/4 teaspoon baker's yeast on a no-knead bread (no sugar added either). It is enough to rise a 3 Lbs. loaf in 4 hours. Imagine what it would do to your cheese!
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 18, 2011, 12:04:19 PM
I dont have access to cheese yeast.

As far as Im aware wine yeast cannot metabolize lactose so im not sure what they will feed on to produce gas, perhaps I need to add a tiny bit of sucrose?

What do you mean by refrigirator (4c) time?  Its kept in the cave (12c) since day 2 since from my understanding the hardening of fat at the fridge will prevent proper draining.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 18, 2011, 12:36:44 PM
Hmmmm,

I aged mine out 4 weeks from make day, both the PC and blue version.  If I understand correctly, you've cut into yours at the 2 week mark? Could it be that these are going through a bitter stage, which then dissipates over time?  So, I just missed the bitter stage of mine?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: anutcanfly on December 18, 2011, 12:44:04 PM
Hi Jeff,

Somewhere I remember you had cheeses that were bitter.  Did they come out of it yet?  When did it start and how long before it resolved?  I have two cheeses I'm worried about.  One had too much rennet and the other, a gouda, I can't for the life of me figure out why it's bitter.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 18, 2011, 06:16:28 PM
Hi anut,

I had a caerphilly that I aged for about 3 months that was a touch bitter.  However, over the time that I ate it that seemed to clear up.  The bitterness was noticable, especially to me, but not overly strong and the cheese was edible.  Generally, the cheeses I've had with some bitterness tended to resolve themselves as I consumed them.  I've wondered if the cutting of them helps clear it up?  I had put it down to too much starter, but I'm not sure if that was it or if it was simply wild Geo that was causing it.  I've never had one be extremely bitter (yet, I'm sure), apart from one camembert that I left to age for far too long and it just went beyond it's use by date - but that's not the same thing.  If you've got a pressed cheese that is bitter, just vac seal or wax it and put it away for four or five months, then try it again.  I made a gouda the end of last year, my first hard cheese, and I let it age for about 11 months before trying it.  I used more renett than I do now by about 50%.  It's fine, very good in fact.  Whether it was bitter or not early on I don't know, but if you're worried about your gouda, just age it out for a long time.  Wax it, so it doesn't take up ripening box room, and forget about it. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: iratherfly on December 18, 2011, 09:03:34 PM
As far as Im aware wine yeast cannot metabolize lactose so im not sure what they will feed on to produce gas, perhaps I need to add a tiny bit of sucrose?
While it prefers sucrose, it will be happy to consume lactose in lieu of sucrose.  Too much science around here lately. Just do and see what it does.

Jeff, the bitterness is in part due to the accelerated rate of proteolytic activity that the P.Roq creates. This is the same reason why blue turns an otherwise crumbly cheese into creamy one, or why Geo makes the paste under a bloomy cheese softer and gooey. In both cases, if you are  not being careful - your cheese will turn bitter too.  The blue needs to slow down. This bitterness happens if too much of it grows too fast (and it doesn't have to take visually blue appearance for this to happen, so don't judge the growth by your eyes only). Blues need to be aged cooler and with lots of salt to control this effect and get beautiful timely growth. (Also, you can use less blue).  Just practice it. It will take a few cheeses to get the hang of this balance. Life is beautiful thereafter. You are going to nail this one quickly.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 18, 2011, 11:30:49 PM
Thanks iratherfly.  I've only made the one blue, so these are definately helpful tips. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: iratherfly on December 19, 2011, 12:03:26 AM
Anytime! I just hope it helps.

I really wanted to make a semi-lactic blue with you (Jeff) and Tomer together on here so that we can all explore it at once and test the theories. This is not the first time I arrive at a specific cheese and a few other people on this forum get to it at the same time so we all do it together and bounce ideas off each other. I would have done it today but I am afraid that I won't be home to care for it at a critical time during the holidays that I plan on spending in Canada.  I will wait with it until the first week of the new year. I will post the recipe and you guys tell me what you think. We will adjust it as needed and any one of us (or all of us) can fabricate it and post photos here.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 19, 2011, 01:29:24 AM
HI iratherfly,

I'm quite happy with the semi-lactic blue that I made.  And the PC version, with a shift to a colder environment after the mould develops, should prevent the slip skin.  Mind you, the inner paste was very tasty, and the runny bit had a wonderful mushroomy overtone to it that was very nice.  Still, I think with proper temperature controls (i.e. lower) I could prevent the slip skin.  I know these are larger cheeses, about 7 cm across and 6 cm tall (just measured it now, so that's the "well aged size"; this is the blue I've measured as the PC one is long gone).  After all this talking about it I decided to have another taste and it's still very creamy and very nice flavoured.  Not over powering, and no bitterness at all.  In general, I would probably follow this make procedure again with few changes.  I've not included any CaCl2.  I've also only pierced vertically, but one could stick in on the side to increase the viening.  I did generously salt the outside after removing from the mold, so I wonder if that slowed down the blue developement sufficiently to prevent bitterness?  If it's not the mat that giving Tomer1 the problems, the only difference I can think of is either the strain of mould we're using or the form factor.

I'm planning on making another one or two over the holidays.  Will see if they turn out as well again. 

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 19, 2011, 08:19:48 AM
Also I didnt salt the outside but rather mixed the salt in which means the outer rind development is much less retarded.   

Gone do another blue batch this weekend.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 19, 2011, 11:04:54 AM
Hi Tomer1,

Hmmm, I think one other difference is I've used either ripened buttermilk or creme fresche as the starter and you've used a DVI starter.  I wonder if in these small batches if it's just easy to over do the starter amount?  Just thinking off the top of my head here.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: iratherfly on December 26, 2011, 12:05:54 AM
Oh, crème fraîche is a fantastic semi lactic starter. It gives the cheese a unique tangy flavor. Most of the French cheeses that have "Delice" in their names are started with crème fraîche and they are utterly delicious.

One more word about slip skin in semi lactics (because I see this happening on several threads here now). I think the thing people overlook about the process of semi lactic is that draining them is nothing like Camemberts, Bries or Tomme. They need to be pre-drained first, then drained in mould for 24-48 hours, salted and then drained out of the mould in cave temperatures for about a week (80-85% RH) before raising moisture to 90%-95% to allowing the rind flora to bloom. This is also what will make a better blue semi lactic.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 26, 2011, 01:17:09 AM
Hi iratherfly,

Just checking my notes and it was the semi-lactic blue I used the creme fraiche as the starter, the PC versions I've used buttermilk.

When you say "pre-drained", so rather than ladel the curds into the mold, are you suggesting the curds get put in cheese cloth, drained for 30 minutes to an hour?  And then, to basically reiterate what you posted, after that they are moved to the mold with the typical flipping for 24 to 48 hours, then salted (2%-3% by weight), then caved normally (1 week), then high humidity. 

I more or less do much of that except for the "pre-draining" and I can't tell what my cave humidity is.  I was thinking that what I had to do was to wrap and shift to the regular fridge once covered in mold.  The blue didn't have any slip skin, but I don't think slip skin is a problem with that kind of mold.  The one I had with major slip skin was aged at 10 C for a month with no real attempt to avoid it. 

Anyway, what do you recommend as a pre-draining protocol?  (and thanks a lot for the tips).

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 26, 2011, 12:30:20 PM
Quote
pre-drained first, then drained in mould for 24-48 hours, salted and then drained out of the mould in cave temperatures for about a week (80-85% RH) before raising moisture to 90%-95% to allowing the rind flora to bloom. This is also what will make a better blue semi lactic

Wouldnt salting 48 hours after draining over acidify the cheese?


Im very concerned about draining blue cheese in the cave for a week in fear of contaminating my other cheeses since I dont have the laxury of a seperate cave for blues.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 26, 2011, 01:34:32 PM
Hi Tomer1,

I would think with these semi-lactics they have really maxed on the acidity from the long ripening and set time.  I'm not sure they would acidify much more would they?

- Jeff
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: Tomer1 on December 31, 2011, 02:01:09 PM
We throw on a small cheese plate tonight with the latest lactics,some very strong gorganzola and some wild rind tomme.

This time there was good flavor,very little to no bitterness and the paste was extremely creamy with no slip skin.
Id call that a success.  I think the geo got out of hand last time.   The moment they had complete bloom coverage I transfared them to the cold fridge for about. this cheese is about 20-25 days old in total.

The tomme has for some reason dried out so it was slightly crumbly but had good flavor and aroma from the rind with some spice to it.  the leftovers will work great on pasta tomorow. :)   
It was a good educational make though.
Title: Re: Jeff's Experimental Lactic PC cheese
Post by: JeffHamm on December 31, 2011, 02:10:21 PM
Yah!  That's good to hear.  Out of control geo does lead to bitterness, so it sounds like the shift to cold storage for slower aging is the way to go.  I'm planning on doing exactly that with my 2nd attempt at this semi-lactic pc make, that's now growing mold.  Just waiting for full coverage, and then will wrap and shift to the regular fridge to slow things down. 

We've been nibbling on a caerphilly (about 3-4 weeks old now) and a 1 year old gouda, and the last bits of the semi-lactic blue.  All are quite tasty, so the new year has come in with treats.  Nice!  Happy New Year to you and yours.

- Jeff