CheeseForum.org ยป Forum

GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Making Cheese => Topic started by: Spoons on November 08, 2013, 01:38:50 AM

Title: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on November 08, 2013, 01:38:50 AM
I finally built my curd knife  :D

This curd knife build is ideal for food pans used as cheese vats. The advantage of this build is you can switch from horizontal cuts to vertical cuts from only a flick of the wrist.

I am by no means a DIY'er, yet this was very easy to make. I even payed attention to the curve at the bottom of my cheese vat pan, so my curd knife would follow the same curve. The whole thing took about 1 hour to make.

The cost for the whole thing : about $8 (although I payed $20 shipping for the SS bar, but I'm an international buyer. Would be a lot cheaper for an American)

I'll give it a whirl this weekend. Can't wait  ;D

Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: terry@dairy fab on November 08, 2013, 04:00:17 AM
Great design, simple yet effective.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Geodyne on November 08, 2013, 05:37:16 AM
That's very cool. Ingenious.

How did you bend the bar?
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Denise on November 08, 2013, 07:16:24 AM
I want one! :P
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on November 10, 2013, 06:11:48 PM
I finally used it, and it worked really well!

This week, I'll ad a wing nut with 2 rubber washers on the bottom screw on the handle. I'll use it to help tie down and tighten the fishing line every time I restring it. I change the fishing line every time I make a new batch, it only takes about 5 minutes. The tension also lasts for days, I strung mine on Wednesday and used it on Saturday and I didn't have any issues. It actually worked beyond my expectations.

Geo, The bending is actually quite easy. I'll post a step-by-step guide on how to build one and where to get the metal online later this week.

Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Geodyne on November 10, 2013, 07:35:50 PM
Thanks Spoons, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Digitalsmgital on November 10, 2013, 11:10:53 PM
wow, that is very cool! And great photos, too! If it was for sale I'd buy it!
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Boofer on November 11, 2013, 02:57:29 PM
Very elegant.

Why do you have to change the line with every make? Why not give it a soapy rinse, air-dry, and the next time Star-San it?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on November 11, 2013, 03:49:30 PM
Very elegant.

Why do you have to change the line with every make? Why not give it a soapy rinse, air-dry, and the next time Star-San it?

-Boofer-


Thanks Boofer!

Maybe it's not necessary to change the fishing line every time, but I do it to avoid miniscule deposit buildup in between each hole. With the line in place, I can't give it a good scrub. Besides, it only takes about 5 minutes to thread a new harp.

So I basically cut a 9' length fishing line. Wipe it in soapy water. String it on the metal frame. Star San the hole thing with my other equipment right before making a batch of cheese. It's really no trouble at all.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on November 11, 2013, 07:37:30 PM
I attached a PDF file with a complete "How-to". Sorry, Digitalsmgital, I won't be building and selling these. That's why I'm sharing the plan. Maybe someone here is up to it and would be willing to build a few to make a few bucks.

The metal I chose : 0.06" (16 GA.) STAINLESS T-304 ANNEALED #4 SHEET PVC 1 SIDE
The 16 GA suits just fine with fishing cable, but if you plan on using stainless steel cable with more tension, then I would suggest 14 GA.

I chose the sheet as opposed to the bar. Bars are too tick gauge and the custom cut sheets are pretty cheap.

Here's where I bought the metal. It's pretty cheap:
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=718&step=4&showunits=inches&id=30&top_cat=1 (http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=718&step=4&showunits=inches&id=30&top_cat=1)
Enter the personalized cut : 0.75" x 40" in this case

See PDF attachment.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Geodyne on November 11, 2013, 09:55:04 PM
Thanks for sharing Spoons. A cheese to you for your design and generosity in sharing it.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Tiarella on November 12, 2013, 11:53:50 AM
There is a forum member who is going to be bringing out a line of curd cutters similar to this and I'm not sure of rollout date.  I'll have him post here with more info and photos.  Good stuff happening with all us cheesy folks!
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Boofer on November 12, 2013, 01:50:00 PM
it only takes about 5 minutes to thread a new harp.
Got it. Thanks for posting this, Spoons.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: tnbquilt on November 12, 2013, 09:27:18 PM
Nice design, I like th fact that you can turn it over. I have someone who will have to make me one.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: terry@dairy fab on November 13, 2013, 12:13:03 AM
If it were drilled at 1/4" spacing it could be used for 1/4",  1/2",  3/4", whatever you wanted to string it at for a particular cheese.


Terry@dairy fab
www.curdknives.com (http://www.curdknives.com)
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on August 30, 2014, 02:40:57 AM
I finally made v.2.0.

This version has holes at 1/4" increments. The stainless steel frame is also thinner, it's still 16GA but this one is only 0.5" wide.

This will make the 1/4" cuts much easier. Can't wait to try it.

Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Andrew Marshallsay on August 30, 2014, 01:03:03 PM
Nice piece of design and definitely worth another cheese. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on August 31, 2014, 06:54:39 PM
Thanks Raw Prawn but it turned out a bit of a disappointment. I made a jarlsberg yesterday and wanted to cut the curds to 1/4". The thing is, the curd knife just kept pushing the curds around without cutting them. Even with super thin fishing wire, it required too much pressure. So I ended up using my other curd knife with the 1/2" cut and used it until most cubes were cut down to pea size.

Lesson learned; 1/4" curd knives don't work. They put too much pressure on the curd mass, and force whey to expel too quick.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: scasnerkay on September 01, 2014, 02:20:41 AM
So did you use the 1/2 harp twice or a few times through to cut them down? That is my strategy.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on September 01, 2014, 02:40:27 AM
For a 1/4" cut, or pea size:
I do the 1/2" cut carefully with the harp in a grid pattern. That way I know each cube is 1/2" in size. Then I just stir with the 1/2 harp until most cubes are reduced to pea size. This is usually about the first 5 minutes of stirring. Then I switch to the perforated spoon for stirring once I'm satisfied with the curd size. I do get some grain sized curds though, it's not perfect. That's why I created the 1/4 harp, I wanted to achieve the pea sized cuts more efficiently. 

I'll try your strategy. So you do 2 "X" cuts, then 2 "Y" cuts then horizontally?
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: OzzieCheese on September 01, 2014, 03:10:39 AM
Love the design work and I know I've had issues with curd knives recently.  The image is my new one and I'm not all that happy with it.  I found it to just pushes the curd around as well.  It is also of the same gage material in your harps.  My opinion it's not the design - it's great. It's the flat edge that is pushing through the curd. And grinding it to an edge isn't the total solution, as the knife here has a .25 mm edge (could be finer though) - It needs also to be polished.  I think the 1/4 inch one would work if the edges were sharpened and then polished.  I have a set of double round boilers and the issue I find is that although I can cut the vertical cuts resonably accurately, it the horizontal ones that get me. not accuate at all - not matter what I do they end up too big and shaped like a funny polygon :'( .  Solution, I'm going to make the 1/2 model and do the horizontal cuts (discs) first and the vertical cuts next. Love the offset handle BTW.

-- Mal
 
       
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on September 01, 2014, 03:24:33 AM
Here's a real simple solution for your horizontal cut in a round vat
http://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.ca/2013/11/making-horizontal-curd-cutter.html (http://cheesemakinghelp.blogspot.ca/2013/11/making-horizontal-curd-cutter.html)
So simple and effective!

I'll sharpen the edges as you suggest, but my 1/2 harp is the same gauge and doesn't push the curds. I'll still try it though in my search for the perfect 1/4 cutter. Thanks Mal.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: OzzieCheese on September 01, 2014, 05:53:31 AM
OMG !!! sorry to sound naf and tweeny! but talk about literally out of the box !! I'm on a misson now - this could be made all stainless and . . . .what an amazing thing.. gob-smaked and so simple.  Humbled by the simplicity . . My problem solved.

-- Mal
   
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: John@PC on April 07, 2015, 12:41:02 PM
Thanks Raw Prawn but it turned out a bit of a disappointment. I made a jarlsberg yesterday and wanted to cut the curds to 1/4". The thing is, the curd knife just kept pushing the curds around without cutting them. Even with super thin fishing wire, it required too much pressure. So I ended up using my other curd knife with the 1/2" cut and used it until most cubes were cut down to pea size.

Lesson learned; 1/4" curd knives don't work. They put too much pressure on the curd mass, and force whey to expel too quick.
Kern and I were discussing curd cutters off-line and he reminded me of your elegant design Spoons.  I think you mention that you have to "re-string" after each use: I assume your using monofilment?  If you go to braided (30# test or so) it will eliminate much of the stretch.  You can also steam sterilize.

I've used our 6" x 6" square frame design for some prototype 1/4" cutters (still just personal use) and the braided line works great.  I get a little bit of sag on some of the strands but when you cut the curds the saggy lines cut just as good as the tight ones ;).

As for the "pushing curds" problem I found that if you insert a knife or spatula on the opposite side your cutting it stabilizes the curd mass.  The wider the blade the better; a rectangular piece of plastic works well too.

I've got some pics and video somewhere of using this method; if I can dig it up I'll post it on a fresh topic for continuing discussion of cutters for rectangular pans.

   
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on April 08, 2015, 03:50:51 AM
I did re-string it every time a first, but not anymore. It washes quite easily with soap and COLD water. The threading doesn't show signs of loosening up even after 10+ uses.

Thanks John for that ''Pushing curd'' problem solution for a 1/4'' cut! Can't wait to try it next time :)
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on April 08, 2015, 04:48:47 PM
I did re-string it every time a first, but not anymore. It washes quite easily with soap and COLD water. The threading doesn't show signs of loosening up even after 10+ uses.

Thanks John for that ''Pushing curd'' problem solution for a 1/4'' cut! Can't wait to try it next time :)

Spoons,

I've followed your progress with this cutter and have a couple of questions with respect to your problems with the 1/4 inch cuts.  As you know commercial cheese makers buy custom made harps in this size and apparently use them without difficulty so I'm wondering if the problem you've had is related to your design or technique.  Hence, the questions:

Are you making the horizontal cut first?  This is the way the "big boys" do it.

If you are making the horizontal cut first is the second cut made in the long direction or short direction (vat length or vat width)?

When you make the cut with your harp are you putting your fingers on the corner opposite the handle to help prevent the the drag of the curds from rotating the harp so that it is not perpendicular to the direction of movement?  Note that pictures of large commercial harps show the handle in the center of the harp and not outside the edge that exists in your current design.

Have you attempted to use braided SS fishing wire on the 1/4 inch cuts?  At the same test strength the SS wire will have less than half the diameter and present less drag.

Kern

Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: terry@dairy fab on April 09, 2015, 03:13:47 AM
I build cheese knives for the cottage cheese industry that are wired both horizontally and vertically in cut sizes from 1/4" to 5/8", and frame sizes up to about 40" x 40". Two of these knives are set side by side and are pulled down the vat mechanically by attaching them to the agitator mounted in the track above the vat. On the outside edges of both knives are side wipers that direct the cheese through the knife rather than going around the  knife at the vat sidewall. These vats are up to 80" wide and 40 feet long. Because they are driven through the curd mass, getting the curd through the knives is not a problem. I don't think this can be done successfully by manually pulling a knife through the cheese, even on a much smaller scale. Increasing the cut size will allow the curd pass more easily but I still see problems.

Terry@ Dairy Fab

www.curdknives.com (http://www.curdknives.com)
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on April 09, 2015, 03:39:13 AM
Thanks Terry.  We could make some serious cheese in that vat!   ;)  One issue we "hobby" cheese makers have is curd cutting.  We recognize the importance of cutting the right size curd consistently and repeatably and how it affects our final product.  Any ideas you have about how to make small cutters that could be drawn through small vats (think four gallons) to accomplish this would make you a hero to many on this forum.   ^-^
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Andrew Marshallsay on April 09, 2015, 08:15:05 AM
. . My problem solved.

-- Mal
   


I built one of these (with modifications) last year. The basic design has since been improved upon by Awakephd:
http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,13485.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,13485.0.html)
I think that there may have been some more recent posts relating to this too.
All I can say is that I've been very pleased with mine. It certainly beats trying to do those angle cuts wth a knife.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: awakephd on April 09, 2015, 05:59:47 PM
Yes, I continue to be pleased with my design -- very repeatable, easy to use, etc. -- but keep in mind it is really only suited to round pots.

Incidentally, I'm intrigued that the professionals make the horizontal cut first -- when I've tried it that way, I don't get as good results; it seems as though the curds tends to knit back together more (due to the weight, I guess), whereas if I make the vertical cuts first, then the curds a a little more free to separate.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Gregore on April 10, 2015, 05:26:31 AM
I made one of these T  shaped  rotary  cutters  also  . At first I thought I would need some thing to keep it at the level needed for each rotary cut  like the bar attached to the top of the pot in the linkl. But I found that the curd held it there for each half turn , then lift and turn again. I bet that even an L shaped rod would work and you would just have to turn a full revolution.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: awakephd on April 10, 2015, 12:48:20 PM
Gregore, that is interesting. Do you feel that you get consistent sizes even without something to index it?
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Gregore on April 10, 2015, 02:03:35 PM
Compared to using a knife at an angle , which looks more like a blind child did it yes I would say they are 90 percent the same size . And I do get away with cutting the horizontal ones first , never tried the other way . 

Come to think of it , you may not get as even if the vertical is already cut  as there is less solid mass to hold the wire in the same plane

I also spent many hrs making and experimenting with  multi wire horizontal cutting , my opinion is that the smaller the batch and the rounder the pot the less likely it is to work.  I also found it abuses the curd too much for my liking . ( I have some pretty high tech equipment to make them so it was not for lack of quality )  and now I see why they charge so much for a commercial one.

I think that as a commercial maker the curd tearing to time saved ratio is probably acceptable , imagine cutting 100 gallons 1 slice at a time . The cheese would have fermented before you were done.
As  home makers have the luxury of no labor cost  and a small enough batch that it takes only minutes to cut with out mesh cutters .

The rotary cutter I use takes about 1 minutes to cut 3 gallons
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on April 29, 2015, 09:20:23 PM
I have been intrigued by Spoons design and ordered some 1/2 inch SS strips in 14 & 16 gauge 45 inches long.  They were shipped from Online's Metals (Spoons recommendation) Seattle facilities.  I was very surprised when I got them as they were bowed and twisted about 120 degrees over their length.  I was able to "undo" the twist but now find the middle edge arches about 1/2 inch when the strips are laid flat.  I spoke with the Online folks who told me this was pretty standard when narrow strips are sheared from plate steel.

I wonder if anyone else has attempted to make Spoons curd cutter and had the same experience with the steel they received?
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Gregore on April 30, 2015, 05:17:25 AM
pic please I might be able to advise you how to fix it . 
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on April 30, 2015, 06:14:46 PM
Thanks, any advice would be helpful. The first picture shows the strip as received while the second shows the "bow" after I removed the twist.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: John@PC on April 30, 2015, 08:28:44 PM
While the bow isn't negligible I think it's manageable for Spoon's design.  Straighter would be better, though.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Gregore on May 01, 2015, 04:50:02 AM
That is pretty bad , but I think it is still usable . I still see some twist in it so that is the first thing that needs to go . Then I would not worry about the bend  at least  not yet.

Next start to do the layout of where you want your 90 degree bends . Mark with a felt , I would bend it over the corner of a desk or some thing like that  as  I am sure you do not a a bending brake .  when it is all bent up as you want it you may find that the bow that is left is hardly noticeable . If it still needs fixing you can unbow it by hand .

One thing that would work for sure but not so easy for some one without the right tools is to heat it up until it is annealed . Need a torch for that . I think a BBQ would not be hot enough , but I maybe wrong on that .

When it is annealing it will wiggle around  like  a snake then settle down to almost straight .

Sounds like you have more than one to try it out on
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Spoons on May 04, 2015, 08:24:03 PM
Kern, mine were slightly bent too. Especially the 0.5'' cut.  I simply clamped the problem area on a vice and hammered gently on the metal strip (very close to the vice) with a rubber mallet. Repeat the process as needed until it's fairly straight. Mine wasn`t perfect but I still proceeded to the steps to build the harp. I used the mallet & vice as I went along building the harp and ended up with pretty good results. The whole thing take less than an hour to build even with these extra ''straightening'' steps.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: IllinoisCheeseHead on May 11, 2015, 09:23:44 PM
Spoons.  Where did you get the steel plate for the frame itself?.  I would like to try to make one and I really think what you designed makes a lot of sense.

Thanks
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on May 11, 2015, 10:16:48 PM
ICH,  If you go to page 1 of this thread you'll find the link to Spoon's source for the SS strips. 
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: BobbieGee on June 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
Hello,
I am interested in the "pan" that you show in these photos. Could you please give me information about it? I need a vat for about 12 gallons of milk and haven't been able to figure out where to get one....any help/information would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Bobbie Greiner
Bemidji, MN
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Al Lewis on June 06, 2015, 06:02:09 PM
If you want to make the "handle section" stronger then make it long and twist it several turns.  The twist will make it more rigid.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on June 06, 2015, 07:27:14 PM
I am interested in the "pan" that you show in these photos. Could you please give me information about it? I need a vat for about 12 gallons of milk and haven't been able to figure out where to get one....any help/information would be appreciated.

The stainless steel vat shown in this thread is what is known as a "full size steam table pan".  Google this and you'll be flooded with information.  Unfortunately, the largest of these is eight inches tall and only able to accommodate a 6-gallon batch.  There is a double size 8-inch pan which presumably will take 12 gallons but the depth to surface area ratio is somewhat awkward - very wide and shallow.  John@PC has used polycarbonate food storage containers with some success.  These vats are usually heated on a griddle and heating becomes problematic as the volume increases.  I can get 1F/minute with my full size 8" pan using a Presto 1800 watt griddle.  PC food storage containers come in very large sizes that would easily accommodate a 12-gallon batch but you'd have to use two griddles with two controllers.

An alternative is a stainless steel stock pot.  You can find these in huge sizes.  I would direct heat these on a gas stove with constant stirring. 

When you get to this size you'll have to siphon the whey into a bucket during draining.  There is simply too much weight to safely pick up a vat this large.
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Scuba_Steve on December 30, 2015, 06:07:19 AM
Looks like an awesome idea!  I'm brand new to this, but I had thought of an addition.  Ever thought about drilling holes on the other 2 sides and stringing those as well so it would make both horizontal and vertical cuts in one pass?
Title: Re: Spoons' Curd Knife Build: Built for food pans
Post by: Kern on December 30, 2015, 07:58:28 PM
I've built versions of the Spoon's curd knife that will cut from 1/4" and up.  The problem at the lower spaced cuts is that you get a great deal of "push back" from the renneted milk that tends to pile up and shove the curds to the sides of of the cutter.  John@pc has suggested using baffles to help prevent this.  I'll take his word for it that these baffles work as I have not tried them my self.

Your idea still requires a minimum of two passes with the cutter and the horizontal and vertical cuts would likely result in the above, also.  I use the Spoon's cutter first first making the horizontal cut, then the long vertical cut and finally the short vertical cuts.  I think that the time saved in making two cuts rather than three would pale in comparison with the time required to string the cutter as your idea would require not to mention the problem above. 

I'll be making a large cheese Friday that ultimately requires "pea sized curd".  I will probably do 3/4 inch cuts and finish the job with a long handled whisk.