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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => INGREDIENTS - Everything Else => Topic started by: Baby Chee on October 10, 2009, 08:29:52 PM

Title: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 10, 2009, 08:29:52 PM
Does anyone use liquid smoke?

I am curious where it is best to buy, or if there are differences between a cheese smoke and other food smokes.

My curiosity comes from an amazing gouda I made a month ago.  It has the texture and flavor of a store purchased smoked gouda called DUTCH STYLE.  I figured I would like to try and match that cheese by adding the smoke.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: GBoyd on October 11, 2009, 12:40:15 AM
It might work, but I've had a bad experience with it.

Be very careful with the amount you add. Even a tiny bit can overpower all other flavors. Also, experiment with brands because some just don't have a good flavor to begin with.

Were you planning on adding it to the brine or to the cheese itself?
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Cheese Head on October 11, 2009, 10:59:55 AM
Baby Chee, I've seen many different bottles in the local large grocery stores here in Houston, TX but have never used. In addition to GBoyd's ideas you could wash the rind with it. I don't know how concentrated it is but I assume you would dilute first?

Also, liquid is while easier, there are many posts here on natural smoking cheese. Let us know if you go for it.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 11, 2009, 11:24:51 AM
Hey guys, my idea was to add it to the milk before or with the starter so it gets a very even distribution in the curd.

I'll definitely try it in about a month when I do a large cheese making fest, mostly gouda in 3.5 to 4 gallon batches.  Natural smoking seems far more consuming and expensive while the liquid seems very easy and inexpensive. 

Stuff on line has a wide variety of cost vs. volume, so I assume something like Wright's smoke (sold by the gallon for the price of others selling 100ml) is fairly diluted.  I'll go to the grocery store and check out the smokes they have there, as well as studying liquid smokes online.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 11, 2009, 03:22:38 PM
As far as I know there is only one brand that is actually labeled with the trademark "Liquid Smoke".

I have used it several times now, primarily with Goudas. But I have also used it in Havarti and Cheddar. The first time I added WAY too much to a Gouda. Fresh curd was just awful. However, after aging for 60+ days the smoke flavor mellowed considerably. Still not a great cracker cheese but it was a fabulous grating cheese.

I now pour off most of the whey and add 2 teaspoons of Liquid Smoke to the remaining curds & whey. I then scoop up the curds and press under whey as normal. I have thought about adding the L.S. in the beginning so it would be trapped in the curd matrix, but I'm not sure how/if that would effect curd formation.

I understand cold smoking but I don't have access to a smoker. When you're smoking meat, the smoke permeates throughout the meat. But it seems to me that smoke can't possibly penetrate as well on a hard natural rind cheese.

If you are doing a waxed rind cheese, Liquid Smoke seems to be the only practical way to get a smoke flavor unless you want to remove the wax, smoke, and then re-wax.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 11, 2009, 07:26:31 PM
SCQ--what brand did you use?

I'll try a run with the smoke in the milk prior to starter and rennet and let you know if it works or kills the chemical reactions.  That will be a month away though when I have a visitor helping me do a lot of cheese.

My thoughts on smoking were the same: real smoke probably doesn't permeate as well.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 11, 2009, 09:23:11 PM
Wright's Concentrated Hickory Seasoning - Liquid Smoke. Only one in the local grocery stores.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 11, 2009, 09:38:20 PM
Good to know.  I am worried about having to go through 5 or 6 brands to find one which isn't horrid, but I can start with Wright's.

How big of a batch were you adding 2 teaspoons to? 
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Cheese Head on October 11, 2009, 10:20:03 PM
Baby Chee, like your thinking!

So hit the local grocery store here, no Wright's Brand Liquid Smoke available, Wright's is a product line of New Jersey based B&G Foods (http://www.bgfoods.com/wrights/default.asp).

What was available was Colgin's brand of Liquid Smoke, I bought Hickory instead of Mesquite for USD1.19. I was expecting a chemical product but ingredients say not and Colgin's website says it's smoke that has been distilled, their process flow picture here (http://www.colgin.com/public/thennow.aspx). B&G Food's says theirs is made similar way (http://www.bgfoods.com/wrights/liquid.asp).

Will post here when use it.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 11, 2009, 10:52:47 PM
Excellent!  Let us know where you added it in the process.

Hopefully they have some Wright's here; this land is a big game and smoking region.  It'd be nice to have a soft smokey flavor in my goudas.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 12, 2009, 01:30:58 AM
How big of a batch were you adding 2 teaspoons to?

I make 4 gallon batches that fit a 7-1/4" mold.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 17, 2009, 11:09:20 PM
Yesterday I found some liquid smoke in Walmarts, but it is a different make.  It smells terrific, but I'll have to play around to get the dosing right when I begin using it.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: DeejayDebi on October 19, 2009, 07:55:32 PM
Do you have a soldering iron? Throw some fruit or nut wood chips in a tin can and put a soldering iron in the can. Put the cheeses on a rack and put a box with a few holes punched around the sides and top, on top of the rack. Wait about 30 minutes and check you cheese.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 19, 2009, 08:34:08 PM
I'm trying to get my head around that idea.  Wouldn't the wood burst into flames and the fruits just fizzle?

Yesterday I was at another supermarket and they had Wrights, so I got Wrights.  Got two bottles of smoke now.  If they don't work for me, I can use them on cooking items.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: linuxboy on October 19, 2009, 10:08:03 PM
I'm trying to get my head around that idea.  Wouldn't the wood burst into flames and the fruits just fizzle?

Yesterday I was at another supermarket and they had Wrights, so I got Wrights.  Got two bottles of smoke now.  If they don't work for me, I can use them on cooking items.

I think DejayDebi meant wood fruit fruit trees or nut trees. So apple, cherry, pecan, walnut, etc. If you use a low heat like a 25W soldering iron, the wood wouldn't really burst into flames. The can also prevents good air circulation, so there's not enough oxygen for the wood to really ignite.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: DeejayDebi on October 19, 2009, 10:18:57 PM
Chee the wood chips are tiny shavings and don't burst into flame they just smolder with a tiny soldering iron. You only need a tiny handful maybe a 1/4 cup of wood chips. The box should be big enough to hold your rack and therefore big tall enough to be at least 3 times the height of the tin coffee can. An old tin pie pan and an incandescent drop light will work too but has a better chance of catching fire than a small soldering iron because the heat is not consentrated in one spot.

As far as liquid smoke a little goes a long way!
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: DeejayDebi on October 19, 2009, 10:20:13 PM
I'm trying to get my head around that idea.  Wouldn't the wood burst into flames and the fruits just fizzle?

Yesterday I was at another supermarket and they had Wrights, so I got Wrights.  Got two bottles of smoke now.  If they don't work for me, I can use them on cooking items.

I think DejayDebi meant wood fruit fruit trees or nut trees. So apple, cherry, pecan, walnut, etc. If you use a low heat like a 25W soldering iron, the wood wouldn't really burst into flames. The can also prevents good air circulation, so there's not enough oxygen for the wood to really ignite.

exactly!
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Michelle on October 20, 2009, 12:34:52 AM
Hi Linuxboy

And I think you meant to say "wood from fruit trees or nut trees"

These damn computers are always changing our typing when we're not looking... ::)
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 20, 2009, 12:39:57 AM
Does that flavor permeate the entire cheese or just a surface taint?
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: DeejayDebi on October 20, 2009, 03:01:27 AM
Do you have a soldering iron? Throw some fruit or nut wood chips in a tin can and put a soldering iron in the can. Put the cheeses on a rack and put a box with a few holes punched around the sides and top, on top of the rack. Wait about 30 minutes and check you cheese.

I did say fruit or nut wood ... but instead of limbs they are wood chips. I guess I am to used to speaking with people that smoke food regularly they know what I mean. Wood chips made from fruits trees or nut trees.

Here is my chart that'l explain it better.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 24, 2009, 09:13:38 PM
Thanks for the chart.  You really are a chain smoker!!

:P

If I go in that direction, I now have good reference.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 29, 2009, 02:24:52 AM
Ok, everyone.  I put my 4 gallons in the large pot for the night, to warm.
CaCl2 is in.
Added 2 Tablespoons to the milk (went up in dose from tsp. because I believe the liquid smoke will not be entirely trapped in the curd).

The milk tastes great.  If that level of smoke is achieved in the cheese, I'll be happy.  If the curds have little or no smoke flavor, I'll add a little more Wright's smoke into the later curd stages.  If the rennet stalls because of the smoke.... well... lesson learned.  I got more milk to go.

... starter is in, the milk is 90ºF, annatto added.  Everything good.  Now I will add the rennet and we see where it goes.
The milk with the smoke tastes great this morning.

Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 29, 2009, 01:16:48 PM
FINAL RESULT:

Liquid Smoke does NOT cause coagulation problems from rennet.

My curds were actually THICKER than normal.  I had to give some pressure to cut into them today, where I can usually just drift through them without feeling much resistance.  The annatto colored the curds well, but there are these reddish slivers all over, which could be a CaCl2 problem.  Those curds taste great!  Wrights has an excellent smoke taste.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 30, 2009, 12:48:40 PM
^-^

I have the finished cheese out for a small dry spell before refrigeration later this morning.  The red slivers from yesterday have disappeared from the cheese.  NO IDEA what went on there, but maybe the brine took them from the surface or they have slowly blended into the meat of the cheese with a bit of time.  Either way, they weren't so bad.  Looked like red hairs or stray varicose veins on the cheese.

Here are the two cheeses this morning.  One is nicely orange and the other is a little electric.  I used 1 Tbsp. annatto and 1 tsp. annatto to test the color I got.  1 tsp. is enough for 4 gallons.  The smoke flavor persists in the stray curd bits I tasted, but then I used whey to brine, which had A LOT of smoke flavor left in it.  If the smoke taste stays the same as I tasted, it won't be bad.  If it mellows, that's good too; any stronger and the cheese becomes nasty for straight consumption.

Sailor's 2 Tbsp. Wrights Smoke seems perfect.  One bottle, retailing around $1.50, will handle 5 4 gallon cheese, so it is about $.30 a 4 lb. cheese.  Not bad.  If someone is a real smoke hog, you can buy gallon jugs online for $25 or thereabouts.  That's a lifetime supply if you make a cheese a month.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Cheese Head on October 30, 2009, 12:57:59 PM
Baby Chee, thanks for info, good news!

Good to hear the reddish slivers disappeared, great fun!
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on October 30, 2009, 03:34:00 PM
Seems a little heavy on the Annato. I use 10-12 drops for a 4 gallon batch. It becomes more yellow as the cheese dries and ages.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 30, 2009, 04:44:06 PM
My bottle has no dropper.  I'll go south of a teaspoon per 4 gallons, I think.  Maybe 1/2 teaspoon for milder yellow.

At first I thought the CaCl2 + Annatto thread would mean my Annatto would be deadened.  That didn't happen, though.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: vogironface on October 30, 2009, 05:39:20 PM
Chee,  great thread.  I have been questioning how to use liquid smoke in gouda and you and sailor have removed the mystery for me.  Thanks.

Wow, you may have to wear sunglasses once that cheese ages with that much color.  will you posts a photo of the bright one when it is ready?
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: Baby Chee on October 30, 2009, 06:13:08 PM
I'll try to remember to do that.  These two cheeses will be gifts at christmas, but I'll try to get a wedge to check taste, and I'll take a picture as well.  The velveeta colored one hopefully fades a little.  My camera is so clunky it makes everything a little yellow, though.

These were actually dry runs for a couple 30 gallon cheeses coming up in mid-November.  Since I figured out the smoke and color well enough, I can go forward and not totally botch the bigger wheels.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: mosborn on November 22, 2009, 04:57:02 AM
Oh, so NOW I find this thread!   Haha!  I was actually looking for advice on liquid smoke this afternoon, but I didn't find it then, and I went ahead and made a 1-gallon gouda with liquid smoke.  I put in a lot more than 2 tablespoons to 4 gallons.  I put about 1/4 cup for one gallon, but I tasted the curd before it went into the mold and it tasted very good to me.   I used the hickory smoke from Colgin.  I put a couple tablespoons in after the second wash, that is, the second time I added hot water, and then again after I drained off the final whey just before putting the curd in the mold.  (I used Ricki Carroll's "Home Cheese Making" recipe.)

Maybe the curd only takes so much of the liquid smoke?  I don't know.  The why tastes good, too.   Then again, I like strong flavors.
Title: Re: Liquid Smoke
Post by: DeejayDebi on November 22, 2009, 05:24:13 AM
Glad to hear it worked for you Chee.