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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => STANDARD METHODS - Aging Cheese => Topic started by: Shalloy on September 01, 2013, 12:53:53 AM

Title: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 01, 2013, 12:53:53 AM
I made some cams the other day and thought the flora Danica YV32 I used from my mad Millie cheese kit had PC in it. I've now realised it doesn't. My cheese has been in the maturation box for 4 days now. Am I able to spray some PC onto the surface as per the instructions in the wiki on this site or have I left it to late?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 12:59:45 AM
I don't see any reason not to...I think I sprayed my last batch on day 3, though it might have been 4, even.  Go for it!
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 01, 2013, 01:04:21 AM
And how did they turn out Mike?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: mjr522 on September 01, 2013, 02:14:19 AM
They were pretty good--best ones I've made, but I haven't made any that are fantastic.  The next ones I make I will not spray until they are pretty dry (which will be about 3 days after making them).   I've got a couple of changes to try that I hope will improve them, but I don't think I'll get fantastic cheeses until I get better quality milk.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: mbox on September 01, 2013, 02:28:34 AM
I made some cams the other day and thought the flora Danica YV32 I used from my mad Millie cheese kit had PC in it. I've now realised it doesn't. My cheese has been in the maturation box for 4 days now. Am I able to spray some PC onto the surface as per the instructions in the wiki on this site or have I left it to late?
They will be fine.
I think you will prefer to spray your camemberts in future , i spray pc & gc on all my Camemberts & Brie and they come out beautifully
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 01, 2013, 02:51:41 AM
Thanks gents, feel a lot better now.

Any suggestions for how much to spray on? I'm thinking just a couple of mists on the top, leaving it for a day to soak in then flipping them over and spraying the other side.

But should I repeat this or is one application usually enough?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: mbox on September 01, 2013, 02:57:39 AM
Thanks gents, feel a lot better now.

Any suggestions for how much to spray on? I'm thinking just a couple of mists on the top, leaving it for a day to soak in then flipping them over and spraying the other side.

But should I repeat this or is one application usually enough?
Yes, i do it that way too - just a mist, i do that twice and i rub / spread it a bit with my hands ( wearing gloves) on the sides too
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 01, 2013, 10:44:18 AM
Thanks mbox will give that a crack. So the PC comes from the rind of a Camembert but where do you get the GC from?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: mbox on September 01, 2013, 02:06:58 PM
Thanks mbox will give that a crack. So the PC comes from the rind of a Camembert but where do you get the GC from?

they are both white molds usually the geo (GC) kicks in a bit earlier both of them are part of the rind's mold
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 03, 2013, 08:47:07 PM
How many days after spraying can I expect to see white mould forming?  I had them at 12C and 80% with the lid off so they could dry out a bit more, as there is still a bit of whey draining from them.
Afetr spraying them with the PC slurry they are in the box with the lid on and are at 10C and 90%.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on September 04, 2013, 08:51:58 PM
It should start appearing around day 5 and with each daily flipping it will help spread the spores if you pat the white patches and then the other side where non is evident.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 05, 2013, 11:15:29 AM
I already have a few small round patches of a white mould about 5 mm diameter with hairs about 2mm long.
Is this the start of the PC growing or is this another mould taking over?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: NimbinValley on September 06, 2013, 01:03:21 AM
It could be PC.  You should get a uniform coverage within a couple of more days.  If it is only growing in areas just check that the cheese surface is not wet in some areas. If it hasn't completely covered the face within a couple of more days I would give it another spray.  With correct humidity and temperature it is very difficult to stop pc growing.

NV.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 08, 2013, 09:46:26 PM
what exactly is the best temperature and humidity? Ive been told or read 7-8C and 90-95% and also 11-15C and 85-90%.
My cheese is sort of tacky or greasy to touch. If I pick it up I end up with a slight greasyness on my fingers if that makes sense. And when I turn it over the bottom is wet where the whey is still draining out.

Here is a picture of how they look. I wiped that black spot with a cloth soaked in vinegar and then smeared the mould over the surface with my fingers.











Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 08, 2013, 11:58:13 PM
I should add that the slurry I made up to spray the cheese was from a Brie not camembert so I suppose that makes this cheese bries and not cams.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: NimbinValley on September 09, 2013, 04:40:43 AM
Before you start to grow the white mould you need to dry the surface of the cheese.  Do this at 16-18oC for a couple of days, turning each day.  Then transfer to the maturing room.  7-8 will be ok, but up to 10-12 is fine too.

Humidity around 95% is good.

NV
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on September 09, 2013, 06:00:40 AM
They're looking good.
Also, you will find the white out-competes the blue anyway.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 10, 2013, 08:31:58 PM
Thanks for the replies. I wasnt sure if that was Pc or something else. Ive left the lid of so it dries out a bit and they are dry enough on the surface but moist when I turn them over.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 12, 2013, 10:49:02 AM
I've had them out of the fridge at around 17c (luckily for me that's ambient temps here in Melbourne at the moment) for 24 hours now.  They are still tacky to touch so I will leave them another 24 hours.
So once I can touch them without them without leaving a greasy film on my hands can I assume they are dry enough and put them back into the fridge?

Also will I have to spray them with PC slurry again as I'm concerned this will only make them wet again?

This cheese making is very hard. It's hard to tell if a cheese is too moist or not moist enough.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: NimbinValley on September 13, 2013, 02:16:02 AM
Its all practice Shalloy.  Depending on the humidity they mightn't dry out much more.  Once you see a fine growth of pc, which will look like a faint white felt, they can go into the maturing room. 

Good luck.

NV
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 13, 2013, 10:34:41 AM
They are still a bit sticky but at least drier than they were. They have patches of PC growth here and there especially on the sides where its covered in larger areas than the top and bottom.
So I'm going to put them back in the fridge tomorrow morning at 10C and 90% humidity.

Will the fact that this cheese has had a delayed PC growth by about a week cause any issues down the track?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on September 13, 2013, 03:14:54 PM
No, it just means they will take a little longer to ripen.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 14, 2013, 10:56:36 AM
Thanks schecken that's good to know. They're back in the fridge at 12C and 90% humidity.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 18, 2013, 09:17:25 PM
I have a moderate amount of PC growth on these now but its still very slow going and I dont have complete coverage.

its also not as white as the photos Ive seen on here of others cams and bries and is more of a darker grey sort of colour.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on September 19, 2013, 06:20:23 AM
That doesn't sound right, what does it smell like? and can you post a picture. (Maybe put a piece of white paper beside it for comparison)
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 25, 2013, 08:23:05 AM
Here's a picture of them. They look much better now but the white doesn't seem to grow where those yellow areas are. I'm sure I read a post here that said that's another type of growth but am yet to find it again.

They smell fine, no ammonia smell at all.

They've been in the cave for 4 weeks and were sprayed with PC 3 weeks ago. Should I now wrap them and place them in my fridge at 3C? Or do I want a better coverage of PC first?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 25, 2013, 09:24:37 PM
I found the post I was referring to. It's this one here

http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10229.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,10229.0.html)

Where Mike Richards has a problem with an overgrowth of geo. But is mine an overgrowth of geo or just an undergrowth of PC where it hasn't completely covered the cheese yet?

I have my cheese cave set at 11C and humidity is around 91%.  Is it time to drop it to say 7C and lower the humidity?
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: NimbinValley on September 26, 2013, 09:27:38 PM
Hi Shalloy.  White mould likes humidity but not wetness.  It also likes good access to oxygen and dislikes acid.  So the areas where the mould has not grown may have been wet or it may have been too dry or didn't get enough fresh air.  If it was a pure PC culture you added with no geo acid may also have been a problem.  I hope this helps.  NV.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 26, 2013, 11:39:12 PM
I forgot to add the culture as I thought it was mixed in with the culture I added. (hence the title of this post)  So I used a slurry of brie cheese sprayed onto the cams.

What can I do now or are they stuffed? i have reduced the temp to 7C and taken the lid of the maturation box but the humidty has dropped to 82%.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: NimbinValley on September 27, 2013, 12:25:18 AM
You will need a high humidity for PC, but no free moisture.

You could respray the cheese where the PC hasn't grown, but I guess it has already started ripening underneath the existing PC.  You could try it and see how it goes.  Either way, the cheese is not 'stuffed'.  It may just not ripen evenly.

My suggestion is respray the bare bits. Continue to grow for another week.  Then wrap and see how you go.

NV.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on September 27, 2013, 10:15:49 AM
You will need a high humidity for PC, but no free moisture.

You could respray the cheese where the PC hasn't grown, but I guess it has already started ripening underneath the existing PC.  You could try it and see how it goes.  Either way, the cheese is not 'stuffed'.  It may just not ripen evenly.

My suggestion is respray the bare bits. Continue to grow for another week.  Then wrap and see how you go.

NV.

Also, keep patting the white areas and then the bare patches to repopulate the PC.

The one on the bottom left actually looks pretty good.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 27, 2013, 11:26:45 PM
Thanks for that. I've been patting and rubbing all surfaces trying to get the PC to spread.  Oh well they are better than the last lot I did at least.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on September 30, 2013, 02:58:43 AM
I was extremely lucky with my cams as they all developed fairly well.
The small blues on the other hand turned into hockey pucks which I grate into pasta occasionally.

You deserve a cheese for your perseverance!  :)
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: mjr522 on September 30, 2013, 03:28:30 AM
The fact that you've got such good PC coverage on most of the cheese and the bare spots are yellow (are they wrinkly at all?) suggests to me that you've got the same problem I had.  I don't think spraying more will help the PC take hold there.  There is also the risk that getting the PC that is already there wet by spraying will hinder its growth (I really don't know if that will take place).  The next time I made cams, I took steps to reduce the geo growth--lower humidity, more salt, letting the cheeses dry out well before spraying.
Title: Re: Forgot to add PC culture
Post by: Shalloy on September 30, 2013, 04:31:43 AM
Mike,

Mine dont seem wrinkly as yours did but I have noticed the yellow areas do seem very soft underneath compared to the parts covered with PC.  I did have an issue from the start as I didnt stir my curds and let them rest long enough so my cheese was very very wet for the first few weeks. But that could have been a blessing in disguise as it took me a week to realise the culture I used didn't contain PC so they had drained and dried out a fair bit before I added the PC spray. But maybe they were still too wet and I perhaps should have left them longer to dry out.

I had salted them 3 times to try and draw out moisture in that week so I dont think under salting was the problem.  Humidity was always around 95% if I left the lid on the box and 81-84% with the lid off so maybe next time Ill keep the lid off from day one to keep the humidity down a bit.

Its strange because the two that were made in one type of mould (Holes for drainage) are completly covered with PC and the two that were made in another type of mould (Slots instead of holes) and are slightly smaller in diameter are the two that I have problems with. I wonder if there is any relevance.