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CHEESE TYPE BOARDS (for Cheese Lovers and Cheese Makers) => ADJUNCT - Blue Mold (Penicillium roqueforti) Ripened => Topic started by: Boofer on April 10, 2012, 04:25:30 AM

Title: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 10, 2012, 04:25:30 AM
Using the recipe from 200 Easy Homemade Cheeses (with slight modifications), I attempted Fourme d’Ambert…my second blue cheese. I was looking to duplicate the taste and texture of some blues I had sampled over the past couple weeks. I had made what was supposed to be a Stilton-style blue last year, but I was not overly impressed with the taste…and it did not improve with time and aging.

Something was slightly amiss during the make of this cheese. I’m not entirely sure what it was.

Initial milk pH: 6.79

2 gallons Twin Brook 1% creamline milk
2 gallons Twin Brook whole creamline milk
1 quart Twin Brook whipping cream
8 cubes Aroma B (meso) mother culture
½ tsp CACL in ¼ cup distilled water
1/16 tsp Renco dry calf rennet in ¼ cup cool distilled water

Began heating milk in double boiler to 90 F. Added culture cubes to cold milk.

While waiting for cubes to melt so I could stir them in, I made a slurry of Regina Blu and distilled water.

When the cubes melted, I stirred them in.

After 15 minutes, I added the CACL and rennet. pH: 6.69

At 20 minutes, flocculation. Using 4x multiplier, I would cut the curd in 80 minutes.

When I cut the curd, the pH was 6.63.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here’s where the story gets a little murky. I wanted to reach pH6.1-6.2 for whey-drain and get the curds in the mold somewhere around pH5.00. I waited and waited…and then waited some more. It was 3 hours later and the pH hadn’t moved below 6.61.

I decided to go ahead and drain and fill the mold(s). After I had filled the large mold I found that I had a few more curds that I had to put somewhere. I quickly prepared a small Bucheron mold and filled it. What an adventure that was!

I pressed under whey using first a 5lb weight for 30 minutes. I flipped, redressed, and pressed for another 30 minutes. Then I drained the whey, flipped, redressed, and pressed with 5lbs for another 30 minutes.

Some 4 hours later the pH had reluctantly moved to 6.55.

I removed the Plyban and began pressing in the pot with 10lb. The pH was now down to 6.48. I flipped, redressed, and continued pressing in the pot with 10lbs.

Two and a half hours later and the pH was at 6.31. I flipped, redressed, and pressed some more. Two hours later still the pH was 5.89 and I pressed some more. I had begun this make at 6:15AM and it was now 8:30PM.

At 11:30PM I checked the pH and saw 6.16. I decided to take it out of the press and start brining. I put the two cheeses in separate whey-brine containers. I got up to turn the Bucheron-type at 3:00AM (it would be brined for 6 hours total). Then I got up again at 6:00AM to remove the Bucheron to airdry in its minicave, and to flip the larger cheese in the brine (it would be brined for 12 hours).

At 12:00PM Saturday, I removed the large cheese to airdry in its minicave. I checked the pH: 5.03.  There are some rind cracks from the Plyban, emphasized by brining.

This afternoon I pierced both cheeses and placed them in the caves. They both had a little residual moisture underneath which I dried. Hopefully this will not present a problem.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So there it is. A big question mark. Why did the pH react that way? Should I have just proceeded according to the recipe and discounted the pH readings? I feel I may have overcooked the curds. The temperature held pretty steady at 88-90F. I have used this mother culture recently and it worked well for me.

This cheese is injected during its affinage with Vouvray wine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vouvray_(wine)). I probably cannot locate that wine but I would still like to inject it. Would a Moscato or something similar be a suitable substitute? Yes, I realize then that it wouldn't be a cheese true to the style. I'm probably far enough away from that at this point anyway.

At this point I am cautiously optimistic curious how these cheeses will turn out. Ah, what a thrilling excursion into the unknown....  ::)

The last pic is my target.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: H-K-J on April 10, 2012, 02:30:15 PM
I cant answer your question about PH,  ??? Just wanted to say they pressed out nicely :)
It looks like you are on another adventure down cheese lane Hope you hit yer target (as in the last pic) :D
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: hoeklijn on April 10, 2012, 03:12:01 PM
Hi Boofer,

To start at the end: They really look nice. I don't have a decent mould in that shape, so I used my Kadova Gouda moulds. I have to find some time to make cylindrical moulds out of some PVC-tubes.
You mentioned injection with Vouvray wine. I can't recall that being mentioned in the recipe (I'm in the train back from work at this moment), but it is certainly not mentioned on Wikipedia for Fourme d' Ambert.
I followed the recipe from 200 Easy Homemade Cheeses without any modification, BUT, I don't have a PH-meter so I have no clue about the PH in the different stages. Mines are now in the cave since March 27th and although I flip the twice a day, they still feel a bit moisty at the outside.
I just had a look at the logfile and I started at 8AM and they were under the press with 5KG at 11:30AM. Well, I never tasted Fourme d"Ambert, so when they are ready, I can only compare them with other blue cheeses I had before....But I'll keep you posted ;-).
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 10, 2012, 05:43:15 PM
If I had been able to do it properly, the two cheeses would have been combined in the larger mold. That was the original intent. When (not if) I do this again, I will ensure that all curds get into the one mold. Here's a little more detail about this cheese style (http://www.iledefrancecheese.com/index.php/Fourme-d-Ambert/fourme-dambert.html).

Below are comments from a couple websites:
_______________________________________

"Fourme d'Ambert is one of France's oldest cheeses (dating from the Roman period). It is traditional, farmhouse and cooperative, blue cheese. Fourme d`Ambert is more supple and dense than more blues. The flavor is savory and nutty. You can easily recognize it by its unusually tall cylindrical shape. Today the cheese is produced with pasteurized milk. The maturing process takes place in humid cellars. The pâté is creamy with a lasting taste of wine. Extremely pleasant, this is one of our Cheese Master specialties. The period of maturing is 3 to 4 weeks and every week the cheeses are injected by a syringe, containing Vouvray moelleux. Similar cheeses include Fourme de Montbrison, Bleu de Montbrison, Bleu de Gex and Bleu de Septmoncel."

_______________________________________


"Fourme d'Ambert is one of France's oldest cheeses (dating from the Roman period). Today production is with pasteurised milk. Like its cousin Fourme de Montbrison, it is a blue cheese. The maturing process takes place in aerated, humid cellars. This is one of our Cheese Master specialties. The maturing period lasts 2 to 3 months. In the Tours region of France the local cheese mongers allow the cheeses to mature by adding a little "mellow Vouvray wine".
This cheese still smells the cave odour and has a lasting taste of wine and fruits extremely pleasant.
The rind is dry and yellow and wrapped in a grey velvet. Inside, the pate is creamy, moistured, with faint hints of blue mould."


I also wanted to say that the curds tasted sweet not sour as one might expect for so long in the press. That supports what I was reading on the pH meter.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on April 10, 2012, 11:41:50 PM
It will be interesting to see how it turns out.  Keep us updated.  Did you're pH meter calibrate ok? Odd.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 11, 2012, 12:06:44 AM
It will be interesting to see how it turns out.  Keep us updated.  Did you're pH meter calibrate ok? Odd.

- Jeff
Yeah, Jeff, it has been doing surprisingly well for me. The latest was the Maasdam and the meter did what it was supposed to do. That's why this is such a diversion from what is "normal". I have been trying to rely less on the meter and to develop a sense for what the milk & curds are doing. Not having much knowledge or experience with blues, I'm in a learning curve. There are some points where you would like to hit certain marks and that's why this was such a disturbance in the Force.  8)

Eh, we'll see how it all turns out. I have identified a few blue varieties here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9337.0.html) and here (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8330.msg58409.html#msg58409) that I would like to emulate. I screwed up in a couple places with this make, but I have the molds, the cultures, and the will...so I am going to press on.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on April 11, 2012, 08:18:58 AM
Does it suppose to have such a high ph at brining (seems awefully high) or were you having acidification issues?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 11, 2012, 03:51:47 PM
Does it suppose to have such a high ph at brining (seems awefully high) or were you having acidification issues?
Tomer1, that was the whole point of the problem I discussed. For some reason the acidity was very stubborn and refused to drop as expected. I wanted the cheese to be sweet and I'm sure it will be. I just hope there is enough acidity.

I want to repeat this make soon and hit the pH points that I should. The cheese should be taller. The form I used is shown on the right. In the middle is the large Bucheron and on the left is the Camembert. I'm thinking the large Bucheron would be a more appropriate form factor.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on April 11, 2012, 03:52:51 PM
Now I wish I had taken more pH measurements... how curious!  I didn't realize it was injected with wine.  I'm going to have to try that!
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: hoeklijn on April 11, 2012, 04:48:40 PM
The injection with Vouvray is new to me, but I'll get me a bottle of sweet white wine and a syringe. I hope it's not to late starting to inject it....
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on April 11, 2012, 05:24:39 PM
I think the lactate (lactic acid) produced during the complete acidification process is essential as food source for the PR mold, thats why during ripening the pH in blue cheeses rise.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on April 11, 2012, 07:01:01 PM
Tomer, That is correct. PR "eats" lactate not lactose or lactic acid. That is why you cannot maintain PR as a Mother Culture. As the starter bacteria consume lactose, it gets converted to lactic acid and then lactate. So a blue doesn't conform to the normal pH/acidity rules. With a cheddar if the pH gets too low, the finished cheese will be dry and crumbly. Not true with a blue. The curds often set overnight to develop the proper acidity and therefore more lactate.

Boof - Aroma B generally has a long pH curve. You can make things go faster if you add a little MA-11 or MM-100. I don't but I do use a little L. helveticus (a thermophile). This helps stabilize proteolysis and does a better job of converting residual lactose. You said you were looking for a "sweet" cheese with the higher pH. Again, that would normally be true, but not with a blue. Your finished pH is the most important. 5.03 is probably OK, but I normally want it around 4.7 to 4.8. I would soak your pH probe in rennet for a while to let the enzyme break up any residues, then calibrate again.

I'm curious why you used whole, 1%, and cream. The low fat milk will definitely effect the creaminess and the mouth feel. That will also decrease your yield.

Not all Fourme's are injected with wine. I do not inject mine.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 11, 2012, 09:58:15 PM
The curds often set overnight to develop the proper acidity and therefore more lactate.
This is curious. Why do the recipes then call for the accelerated molding?

Boof - Aroma B generally has a long pH curve. You can make things go faster if you add a little MA-11 or MM-100. I don't but I do use a little L. helveticus (a thermophile). This helps stabilize proteolysis and does a better job of converting residual lactose. You said you were looking for a "sweet" cheese with the higher pH. Again, that would normally be true, but not with a blue. Your finished pH is the most important. 5.03 is probably OK, but I normally want it around 4.7 to 4.8.
Good to know. I do intend to retry this cheese and I'll plug in your steerage. I am also now suspicious of my Aroma B mother culture cubes and may opt for dry culture for the next go-around.

I would soak your pH probe in rennet for a while to let the enzyme break up any residues, then calibrate again.
So you're thinking my meter's reference may be out of kilter and the rennet might correct that?

I'm curious why you used whole, 1%, and cream. The low fat milk will definitely effect the creaminess and the mouth feel. That will also decrease your yield.

Not all Fourme's are injected with wine. I do not inject mine.
When I bought the milk for this make, I was faced with only four bottles (64oz) of whole. Checking the pulldates for the 2% and 1%, which were in good supply, the 1% was quite a bit further out (thus fresher), so I decided to go with the fresher 1% and supplement the missing cream. Obviously, if I had been able to get all whole milk, I would have done it. If you view the different milks in their bottles at the store, the only clear difference I see is the level of cream at the neck. I wouldn't expect that the yield would be reduced if I added in the whipping cream and effectively boosted the 1% to whole.

I agree: not all Fourme d'Ambert cheeses are injected. I found that out.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on April 11, 2012, 10:21:35 PM
Whats are the effects of the injections?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 13, 2012, 12:18:45 AM
Whats are the effects of the injections?
Well, Tomer1, I will let you know when I find out.  ;)

I expect to restart tomorrow morning.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Hande on April 13, 2012, 10:32:04 PM
Thanks Boofer , those pics are so great..
Now I need to try make it too :)
Hey, here is spring and I can get soon raw milk again..

Hande
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 14, 2012, 06:23:55 AM
Yeah! Hello, Spring...and new raw milk!  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 14, 2012, 06:43:24 PM
Okay, the Regina Blu slurry is doing its thing. Early blue is coming out.  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on April 14, 2012, 09:27:42 PM
Nice!  Always a relief to see the first signs of mould growth.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on April 16, 2012, 04:24:23 PM
Looking good! Go Boofer!  :)
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: hoeklijn on April 16, 2012, 07:20:16 PM
OK Boofer, I still had to post picture of my try of Fourme d'Ambert. I know, the shape isn't what an original Fourme d'Ambert has to be, but the smell is really good. I have rubbed the cheeses once a week with some salt, but the rind is getting more wet that I like that way. I think I will give it rest for a while.... Second picture is the current content of my cave, still waiting for some extra glass shelves however. Top shelve the Fourme d'Ambert, second 2 kg of Cabra al Vino and almost 3 kg of Leiden, last one 2 big and 2 small Greek Gouda's....
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 16, 2012, 11:18:03 PM
OK Boofer, I still had to post picture of my try of Fourme d'Ambert. I know, the shape isn't what an original Fourme d'Ambert has to be, but the smell is really good. I have rubbed the cheeses once a week with some salt, but the rind is getting more wet that I like that way. I think I will give it rest for a while.... Second picture is the current content of my cave, still waiting for some extra glass shelves however. Top shelve the Fourme d'Ambert, second 2 kg of Cabra al Vino and almost 3 kg of Leiden, last one 2 big and 2 small Greek Gouda's....
Nice cave. What's a Greek Gouda?

Have you tried the salt on the rind treatment before? How do you know it won't be really salty? I ask because I want to limit my rind growth on the blues. I want the blue on the inside.

I just happened across a thread of Jeff's Stiltonesque and rather than hijack his thread, figured I'd pull this comment over from linuxboy:
Quote
You can wrap, but that's typically done for surface salted blues.
What are the guidelines for rind maintenance on surface salted blues and when do you wrap (in cheese paper)?

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: hoeklijn on April 17, 2012, 06:25:32 AM
A "Greek Gouda" is a Gouda with a mix of stuff like coriander, paprika, garlic, onion, a bit of cumin etc. Gives a lovely taste.
I didn't try the salt treatment before, it's my first "real blue". The only blue thing I tried before was Cambozola which turned out to be really good. But that is treated like a Camembert and wrapped in paper. Mmm, think I'm going to try that with one of them and compare the development...
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 27, 2012, 04:01:41 PM
We're moving right along.

The holes have once again closed up. I'm going to have to pierce again to ensure the blue can breathe.
Stand back, folks! Give 'em some air!

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on April 28, 2012, 04:01:52 PM
They looking like they're coming along nicely.  This has been my favorite of the blues I've tried so far.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 28, 2012, 04:04:59 PM
Yeah, you know...I think I like that controlled rind growth from the brining.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on April 29, 2012, 03:59:35 PM
Me too.  This cheese style and the gorgonzola I washed with salt to minimize growth on the rind, developed rinds that were good, if not better than the interior!
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 04, 2012, 03:33:32 PM
Coming up on 4 weeks. I was originally not going to inject this cheese, but I found a third bottle of Vouvray and I read a thread that discusses injecting (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,4394.0.html), so I have decided to go ahead with that.  :)

I also decided that these two cheeses from the same make needed to team up. There was room in the minicave for both, so why not? That also frees up space on the cave shelf.  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on May 04, 2012, 04:12:25 PM
Looking good!  What does Vouvray taste like?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on May 04, 2012, 04:51:37 PM
Just a quick tip.
If your not going to drink the bottle and got it just for the cheese,  devide the wine into small jar portions and freeze them.  This will keep the wine fairly fresh and delay oxidation.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 04, 2012, 11:59:15 PM
Just a quick tip.
If your not going to drink the bottle and got it just for the cheese,  devide the wine into small jar portions and freeze them.  This will keep the wine fairly fresh and delay oxidation.
You are kidding me, right? Not drink the wine?

Let's see, can I find a hunk of cheese anywhere and maybe a piece of crusty bread?  :D

That is, of course, after the injections have been concluded. And that will be awhile.

Looking good!  What does Vouvray taste like?
You know, I'm looking at three different bottles of Vouvray, unopened. I'll have a taste when I open one (or two) this weekend. Keep in touch....  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 05, 2012, 04:44:25 PM
Injection Day!

Okay, so I had three choices of wine to inject. How to pick one? Very arbitrary I'm afraid. Not really having any prior knowledge of this wine or its application here, I just selected one that I thought would work. I opened the bottle, tasted the wine...not bad. It's very akin to a Chablis.

The injecting was as Brie had mentioned. When you inject, the wine can emerge from the holes previously pierced for the blue to breathe. Several times while I was gently pressing the plunger on the injector, it would not move. I had found a space in the cheese that did not have any piercing channels. Continuing to press the plunger applied pressure so that the wine found a channel to relieve the pressure. The result was a mini geyser as the wine squirted out or up (or both) from the piercing holes. What a surprise! I almost had a shower at one point as the wine geysered up from a hole in the top (flat surface)!  ::)

I attempted to inject to get complete coverage of the interior of the cheese. How well I accomplished that I do not know. Next week I will try to repeat the process. Hopefully, the cheese would have dried somewhat before that time. When I finished this morning, the cheeses were very wet. After injecting, I turned the cheeses over and made sure that all surfaces were coated with the wine.

Uncharted territory here. Is the cheese too wet? What will the wine do? I did not dry the cheeses off, but instead air-dried them out of the cave for about an hour. I will be monitoring them to see what happens. Wish I had more detailed direction. I guess I'm getting that now.  ???

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on May 05, 2012, 05:23:15 PM
Next week I will try to repeat the process. Hopefully, the cheese would have dried somewhat before that time.

And hopefully the same can be said of the cheesemaker!  I do recommend a shower before going for a drive.  Explaining to the police that you smell of wine because you were making cheese might be harder to explain that you think. :)

Looks good.  Looking forward to the outcome.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: H-K-J on May 05, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
It does look good Boofer ;D

Quote
8 cubes Aroma B (meso) mother culture

I was curious if you could use (DVI) MM-100-101 for the culture and end up with a similar result?
Love the turkey injector idea :)
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Aris on May 06, 2012, 12:23:59 AM
Looks wet, just hope B. Linens won't be attracted to the rind. I wonder how blue veining will develop, i've read blue mold don't like being wet. This experiment is interesting, i hope it goes well.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Brie on May 06, 2012, 04:32:45 AM
Boof--you are using my exact method! I injected, and then let cheese dry out a bit before returning to cave. One thing I do remember is that this cheese forms a brown crust after about a month. If you find that happening, just wipe it down with saltwater. Can't wait to see the finals!
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Brie on May 06, 2012, 04:45:23 AM
Sorry, forgot to add this because it is very important--Boof, you are no longer making Fourme d'Ambert, you are making Fourme au Vouvray; which is why you never see the wine-injecting step in Fourme d'Ambert recipes.  They are sister cheeses-not one and the same.  I have made both and prefer the latter for the character that the Vouvray adds. I believe there is a Fourme au Sauterne made in France as well.
Cheese On !
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 06, 2012, 05:28:57 AM
Thanks for your guidance, Brie. I'm a little in the dark with the fine detail of this make.

I Googled but don't see the "Fourme au Vouvray" reference. I'll stick to the moniker on the subject line. The pic is from thefrenchdelicatessen (http://www.thefrenchdelicatessen.co.uk/fourme%20d'ambert.html).

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 11, 2012, 03:28:38 PM
It's amazing what the same curds will do when treated a little differently or shaped in a different mould. The smaller cheese is moist and tacky. The main cheese looks to be exactly what I would expect, judging by the pictured examples. There is some blue activity at the pierced holes and not a lot on the rind which is what I wanted. The wine injection last weekend poofed up the surface in places a little.

One interesting observation: the second pic shows one of several injection sites that have slight residual wine seepage.

This weekend the cheese will once again be brutalized with the wine injection. I don't foresee any ill effects with the larger cheese, but the little guy might be overwhelmed since it's already pretty moist.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on May 11, 2012, 03:33:52 PM
Nice color.  I wouldn't have thought it was a blue.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: beechercreature on May 11, 2012, 03:49:04 PM
oh boy, that's starting to look really nice. great job.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 13, 2012, 02:26:41 PM
I injected both cheeses for the second time yesterday. The little guy was quite tacky from the linens he's managed to find. The main cheese is very different from the little guy. Again, the rind is not tacky. There is some linens growth. I can see blue in the holes. When I injected gently the rind would raise up slightly. I got several small geysers when the pressure found a vent. At this point, there aren't many places that seem solid and resistant to the injection.

Very interesting experiment.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on May 14, 2012, 03:21:48 PM
I can't wait for you to open and taste one! 
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 15, 2012, 01:58:46 PM
The places that I pierced with the injector are splitting. This weekend is scheduled for the third injection, but I think the little guy needs a break.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: hoeklijn on May 15, 2012, 02:26:54 PM
I had the same after the second time I pierced them and I noticed that after I had them out of the cave for about an hour.
Since that moment I didn't get them out anymore, except to eat one of them...
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 15, 2012, 03:59:33 PM
I hesitate to inject with wine or beer because of the active yeast, fermenting and associated outgassing.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 16, 2012, 12:33:47 AM
I hesitate to inject with wine or beer because of the active yeast, fermenting and associated outgassing.
The Grand Experiment, Ed.

Nothing ventured...nothing gained. Brie gave me the encouragement I needed to try this. If it bombs, at least I will have some education behind me if the thought crosses my mind in the future. On the other hand, if it proves successful, I have not only helped myself, but perhaps one or two others who may take this path.  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Sailor Con Queso on May 16, 2012, 01:00:14 AM
I agree. Innovation and new ideas are born out of failure, mistakes and accidents. If we didn't try (and fail), how would we invent new "stuff"

I know that injecting with wine is done, but I suspect that there are some trade secrets that "they" aren't telling us. I produce a few spirit infused cheeses and I can tell you that it is very important to be sure that the pH and calcium are in balance. That still leaves the active yeast problem. :D
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on May 16, 2012, 09:55:52 AM
Quote
That still leaves the active yeast problem
If you want to off the yeast just take the wine to 50-55c for about 30 minutes with the lid on.

Having said that, most white wines are sterile filtered.  Espacially thos with residual sugar. so given you work with a freshly opened bottled you will have close to no yeast induced by the wine.
Commerical (non bottle conditioned) beers (tank conditioned) are too filtered and contain very little viable yeast in it if any.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 21, 2012, 10:45:57 PM
I decided not to inject Vouvray this past weekend. It seemed like the cheese could stand a little break, and I thought the wine needed more time to ease into the paste.

The thing that has really been bothering me about this cheese (both of them) is the B. linens that has taken up refuge here. I needed to knock it back. This isn't supposed to be a washed rind cheese, blue or otherwise. The aroma from the linens is was pretty strong. I added a little salt to some Vouvray and proceeded to gently wash the linens off. So you could say that the cheese did get a little wine added to it this week after all...but not very much.

We'll see how it fares from this point on.

The little guy has his own set of problems. The process for both cheeses was very different and the little guy ended up being more moist than the main cheese. For a while I was tempted just to go ahead and cut it, but I decided a little time by himself might help him out. After washing the little guy, I wrapped him in cheese paper.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on May 22, 2012, 12:37:56 AM
Oh its gone be soft and stinky in there ;)
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 26, 2012, 02:55:27 PM
This is the 7 week point. I had decided not to inject any more wine into the cheeses. Probably a good decision. For this first effort...no sense in going overboard.

The main cheese looks great after washing the linens off. The rind is dry, but not exceptionally so. There is slight wine seepage under the cheese and from some of the lower piercings on the sides. It looks like a little more continued affinage following the current regimen should complete the cheese.

Now let me turn my attention to the little guy. This cheese was actually extra curd that wouldn't initially fit into the main mould. I had to put it somewhere. With that course of action, the treatment, pressing, injecting, and aging has been quite different than the main cheese. This cheese started out with a lot more moisture and has stayed that way, especially with the aid of the wine injections. I had my doubts as to what I would end with at the end.

As of today, my doubts have been squashed. This is a creamy cheese with a kiss of salt and blue. The rind is wonderful (I had my doubts about the rind too because of the extensive linens growth.) and teams up with the paste to deliver a very nuanced blue flavor. I think it mimics the original Regina Blu (from Germany) fairly closely.

My Quality Control sample is out this morning to come to room temperature. Ahhh, breakfast!

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: H-K-J on May 26, 2012, 03:12:36 PM
yer makin my mouth water :P great job!!!
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: anutcanfly on May 26, 2012, 03:26:02 PM
Awesome cheese!  Lovely way to wake up in the morning.  ^-^
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on May 26, 2012, 05:44:04 PM
That looks like a really nice result.  With your notes you should be able to recreate the little guy as well.  We're moving this week, hence all my cheese making and testing has to be vicarious.  I'm doing well that way it seems! :)

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: hoeklijn on May 26, 2012, 07:32:35 PM
Great looking cheeses Boofer, so much different from what I achieved. But, I'm still missing your report about the taste???
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Aris on May 26, 2012, 11:53:21 PM
Good looking cheese and it has a decent amount of blue mold in the paste.  The paste does resemble a fourme d ambert's paste except it doesn't have that much blue mold. Maybe next time you'll get this right. Did the wine flavor still lingers in the cheese?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 27, 2012, 12:09:21 AM
Great looking cheeses Boofer, so much different from what I achieved. But, I'm still missing your report about the taste???
I enjoyed it this morning with sliced apple. The cheese was soft and gooey in places. Possibly from the starting moisture and enhanced by the wine. It had a little saltiness to it along with just a touch of blue flavor. Both had just the right measure. Small pieces of it perched on thin apple slices created a marvelous taste. Before I  knew it, the cheese sample was gone...and I wanted more. (Later.)

Good looking cheese and it has a decent amount of blue mold in the paste.  The paste does resemble a fourme d ambert's paste except it doesn't have that much blue mold. Maybe next time you'll get this right. Did the wine flavor still lingers in the cheese?
Since this is only the third blue cheese (and only the first wine-injected!) I have made, I do have a way to go in my cheese-making education.

I wouldn't say that I sensed a wine characteristic to the paste, but I'm sure that it helped create the overall texture and flavor I enjoyed this morning. I'm really curious about the main cheese in this make. It promises to be something memorable.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: DeejayDebi on May 27, 2012, 03:15:22 AM
That looks awsome Boofer! Another cheese for you!

(http://deejaysworld.net/yabbfiles/Smilies/smileyfaceclapping.gif)

Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Brie on May 28, 2012, 12:39:22 AM
Great looking cheeses Boofer, so much different from what I achieved. But, I'm still missing your report about the taste???
I enjoyed it this morning with sliced apple. The cheese was soft and gooey in places. Possibly from the starting moisture and enhanced by the wine. It had a little saltiness to it along with just a touch of blue flavor. Both had just the right measure. Small pieces of it perched on thin apple slices created a marvelous taste. Before I  knew it, the cheese sample was gone...and I wanted more. (Later.)

Good looking cheese and it has a decent amount of blue mold in the paste.  The paste does resemble a fourme d ambert's paste except it doesn't have that much blue mold. Maybe next time you'll get this right. Did the wine flavor still lingers in the cheese?
Since this is only the third blue cheese (and only the first wine-injected!) I have made, I do have a way to go in my cheese-making education.

I wouldn't say that I sensed a wine characteristic to the paste, but I'm sure that it helped create the overall texture and flavor I enjoyed this morning. I'm really curious about the main cheese in this make. It promises to be something memorable.

-Boofer-

If you have tried the cheese without the wine, you should be able to detect a difference. You continue to amaze me, Boof, with the time you take to record everything! Either a Virgo or Capricorn, I suspect ): I am wondering why the blue veins are just in the punctured holes...I normally punch on the sides as well as the top and bottom. This cheese is quite soft, so needs to be out of its box every other day to promote the air to circulate. The fact that you felt it was heavenly is the best review--congrats!
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 28, 2012, 01:10:38 AM
If you have tried the cheese without the wine, you should be able to detect a difference. You continue to amaze me, Boof, with the time you take to record everything! Either a Virgo or Capricorn, I suspect ): I am wondering why the blue veins are just in the punctured holes...I normally punch on the sides as well as the top and bottom. This cheese is quite soft, so needs to be out of its box every other day to promote the air to circulate. The fact that you felt it was heavenly is the best review--congrats!
Capricorn...you are some detective!

The cheese was very moist. In the end, I am glad it was so moist. It was pierced on the ends and along the sides. It was then later injected on the ends and on the sides. I removed it for its airing every other day. I was tempted to do so more often, but managed to control myself. You can see that the main cheese in this make is a lot drier.

You know, some folks here think a blue cheese needs to be overwhelmed with veining in order for it to be a success or just a tasty treat. I beg to differ there. Some of the best-tasting blues for me have not been saturated with blue. I sampled this cheese again today (couldn't keep away) and it was again gone before I knew it. This was a 4 gallon make and did not include this cheese form at the beginning. Now I am rewriting the recipe downsized to 2 gallons to accommodate two small Bucheron moulds. I want to attempt an intentional duplication of this little piece of magic. Of course it will be injected. I'm considering a change though...all raw milk.

The effort that it takes me to record some specific events or images for later posting is minimal compared to the historical value I get (and your kudos ;)) so that I can go back and review the progress of a particular make. I take and have a lot more pics than the ones I select for posting. What can I say, digital photography rocks!  8)

Thank you and those of the other members for your kind words. You're the one who gave me the encouragement to inject.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on May 28, 2012, 01:49:00 AM
If you make two from the same batch next time, then I would suggest injecting only one of them.  That will give you one for comparison to determine the effect of the wine on the cheese maker .

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 28, 2012, 06:39:44 AM
Ah, yes...like a control in an experiment. Then I should consume what I would have injected into that second cheese. Brilliant, Jeff!  ;)

Now that gets me thinking that I should go ahead with the full four gallons, fill the two small Bucherons, and put the remaining curds into two small Kadovas. Yeah, that should work.  8)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on May 28, 2012, 06:47:49 AM
I wonder how interesting it would be to inject a ruby port wine or sherry.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 28, 2012, 06:58:17 AM
Well, they do make a cheese with port. Might be interesting. It seems like it would be worth trying at least once.

Seems like the technique works as long as you don't overdo it. As I said, I'm still curious how the larger cheese will turn out. Probably another two weeks before I cut it.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on May 28, 2012, 08:45:41 PM
I decided that this needed a little extra air this morning...so I pierced it again. The holes closed again as soon as I withdrew the knitting needle. The paste is very creamy. I think it's a good decision to stop injecting when I did. The additional air it gets for the next two weeks will help to dry it out a little and help to enhance the blue.

I removed those little rings of paste...very tasty.  :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on May 28, 2012, 09:52:12 PM
Ooooo!  That's going to be so good.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on June 09, 2012, 11:52:36 PM
Well, it was time....  8)

I needed more shelf space and needed to cut this today. It had been weeping wine out the bottom every time I went to turn it. Surprisingly, the paste was not exceptionally wet when I cut it. The blue seemed to be a little lighter than my Fourme d'Ambert #2. That's okay with me. It was sufficient to get the blue message across. The first taste appeared a little acidic and had the essence of the Vouvray. Further tasting either allowed my tastebuds to accommodate the complex flavor or that was just an anomaly in the paste. I sectioned the cheese and vacuum-sealed smaller portions for stepped tastings down the road, and also sliced a little for my brunch. I went out and grabbed a portion of FdA #2 to taste along with this cheese for comparison.

This cheese has a distinctive rind developed with the assistance of the volunteer B. linens that came on board. I had washed the linens off and the rind was very tasty today because of that action. That makes a great case for letting a rind development take place but then removing the rind action later and stopping the rind activity. The presence of the wine also influenced the rind development. I enjoyed both of the Fourme d'Ambert cheeses but I'm not so sure I would do the injection again. I think I preferred the clean brined rind without the linens involvement and I don't know if the wine addition was so noticeable.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: JeffHamm on June 10, 2012, 12:26:32 AM
Very nice marbling, especially the left side piece with the apples.  That looks very photogenic.  Nicely done.

- Jeff
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: T-Bird on June 22, 2012, 11:27:09 PM
That's one of the prettiest cheeses I've ever seen Boof. I have never seen a fourme d ambert so I can't comment on the authenticity of the appearence. I can go to the local Whole Foods, if they have one, I would be willing to buy it, taste it, and if you would send me a LARGE piece of yours, I would be willing to give you an honest appraisal and comparison.-What a guy-huh?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on June 23, 2012, 05:37:01 AM
Such a selfless gesture.  ;)  You can come stir the pot at 4:30 tomorrow morning.

-Boofer-

Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on April 21, 2013, 09:22:44 PM
I think Im ready to start injecting some port and an artificial ice wine into my dambert, veining is enough to my taste.

How many mL per kg of cheese would one aim for?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: H-K-J on April 22, 2013, 01:35:06 AM
My mouth is salivating :P
A cheese to you ;D
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 22, 2013, 06:59:22 AM
Thanks for the cheese, H-K-J.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on April 23, 2013, 04:04:33 PM
Big fail, I got some hypodermic needles and I cant compress the plunger at all (too much counter pressure).  Is the paste too dry maybe?
What kind of needle did you use?
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Boofer on April 24, 2013, 01:20:06 PM
What kind of needle did you use?
Here you go (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9484.msg70349.html#msg70349).

Big needle with tip cut on the bias with a hole a little bit from the tip to allow easier injecting into a turkey breast.

No, not a hypodermic syringe. Wrong choice with a tiny needle and a tiny tip hole.  ???

-Boofer-
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Tomer1 on April 24, 2013, 07:17:21 PM
Mine says 18G, To my understanding thats really tiny (1.2 mm).   any idea what yours says?  I'l try looking for size 7 (4.5 mm)
Chicken\pork injectors are not very common around here, I dont even think top chefs know this technique of brining\seasoning meat from the inside. It really helps with leaner parts of the pork light thigh which is very hard to cook moist but still tender.
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: Schnecken Slayer on April 24, 2013, 07:25:04 PM
You can pick them up cheap on eBay  http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Top-Quality-Stainless-Steel-Flavour-Injector-Injects-Marinades-Cure-/230863774303 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Top-Quality-Stainless-Steel-Flavour-Injector-Injects-Marinades-Cure-/230863774303)
Title: Re: Reluctantly...Fourme d'Ambert-like
Post by: dthelmers on April 24, 2013, 08:00:19 PM
Here's one from Butcher & Packer that I use for curing meat. It has holes along the length of the needle.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/bh896sw (http://preview.tinyurl.com/bh896sw)