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GENERAL CHEESE MAKING BOARDS (Specific Cheese Making in Boards above) => EQUIPMENT - Aging Cheese, Caves => Topic started by: Caseus on April 29, 2012, 01:56:35 AM

Title: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on April 29, 2012, 01:56:35 AM
Woohoo.  This is my very first cheese cave.  It's a 4.4 cubic foot Danby DAR440BL (http://www.walmart.com/ip/5893621?adid=22222222227001177963&wmlspartner=wlpa&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=13223134510&wl4=&wl5=pla), refrigerator only, no freezer.  I'm sure I'll fill it up before long and I'll wish I'd gotten something bigger, but honestly I'll have to get a bigger house to fit a larger refrigerator.  Regardless, I'm very excited to finally be able to age cheese at the right temperature. 

Speaking of temperature, I'm running it off of a Ranco ETC 111000-000 (http://www.patriot-supply.com/products/showitem.cfm/47723) digital electronic controller.  I've got it set for a target temperature of 53°F with a hysteresis of 3 degrees.  That should give me an operating range of 50 to 56 degrees.  In addition to the Ranco, I've also got a Thermoworks RT817E (http://www.thermoworks.com/products/humidity/rt817e.html) remote probe thermo - hygrometer installed to measure humidity and to give me another temperature feed to compare to the Ranco.   I'm not too worried about the humidity right now since all my cheeses are waxed.

Those are my first four cheeses inside.  The red one on top is a farmhouse cheddar.  The yellow one next to it is a colby.  On the lower shelf, the red one is my most recent cheese, a plain Monterrey Jack.  The bigger yellow one is my first Habanero and Jalepeno Pepper Jack. 


Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: DeejayDebi on April 29, 2012, 03:49:42 AM
WooHoo! Your on a roll! Nice mini cave. I like the mini caves I use two for different stages of aging. One is so small it sits on my microwave.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Boofer on April 29, 2012, 05:32:51 AM
Excellent! Looks good. Sounds like you have all the bases covered.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on April 29, 2012, 06:26:19 AM
I made my first cheese on 3/20, and my my most recent cheese on 4/22.  They have been in my regular refrigerator at a temperature of around 36°F until today when my cave came online.  Since 36°F is tool cold, I will just start counting my aging on these four cheeses from today.  Does that sound right?
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: MrsKK on April 29, 2012, 06:39:21 AM
Yeah, I'd say that's about right.  For my first three years of cheesemaking, my cave for the wintertime was a cabinet in my basement, where it stayed about 55 degrees all the time.  From April through November, though, the cheese had to be in my spare fridge, which was set to 38 degrees to keep the milk good and cold.  I forgot a cheese in there for over a year and it was lovely when I re-discovered it, but like a three to four month aged cheese.  That cold really slows down the ageing.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on April 29, 2012, 04:48:14 PM
So when a cheese gets to a level of aging that you're satisfied with and you don't want it to age any more, you can put it in your regular cold refrigerator for "cryogenic suspended affinage".  Sort of.   ;) 

Does that "suspended affinage" work for soft cheeses too, like Camembert, Brie, Crottin, and so forth, or just for hard and semi-hard cheeses?  It seems to me like a big wheel of commercial Brie continues to age in my regular refrigerator over the two or three weeks it takes me to eat it.  Maybe it's not really aging so much as drying out, but it does seem to get stronger.  On the other hand, I had a 2 lb block of Tillamook Sharp Cheddar stuck in the back of my fridge unseen for nearly a year, and when I finally opened it, it seemed hardly different from one I'd just bought.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: knipknup on April 29, 2012, 07:47:24 PM
nice cave *fighting the envy*
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on April 29, 2012, 11:25:12 PM
I've been monitoring my humidity, and it had been at 48% persistently until just a little while ago.  It's climbed to 51%.  So clearly I'm going to need to do something to increase the humidity in order to have anything other than waxed or vacuum bagged cheeses in there.   Tonight when I turn the cheeses, I'll add a bowl of water with a towel wick and then watch for a couple of days to see what happens.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: anutcanfly on April 30, 2012, 01:53:19 AM
Your going to have a lot of fun filling it up!  Sadly, you do eventually and then you have to figure out how to fit or justify a new cave! Cheese making is addictive!
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Boofer on April 30, 2012, 01:26:37 PM
I've been monitoring my humidity, and it had been at 48% persistently until just a little while ago.  It's climbed to 51%.  So clearly I'm going to need to do something to increase the humidity in order to have anything other than waxed or vacuum bagged cheeses in there.   Tonight when I turn the cheeses, I'll add a bowl of water with a towel wick and then watch for a couple of days to see what happens.
Again...ripening boxes ("minicaves") get the job done. Search on the forum.

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Hande on April 30, 2012, 05:58:13 PM
Long ripening cheeses you need to use vac / wax or humidifier.
I use now ultrasonic + humidity controller http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8708.0.html (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8708.0.html)

Hande
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on April 30, 2012, 06:22:50 PM
Boofer, I have a Rubbermaid 9.4L (40 cup) plastic container that I bought for ripening, and it fits in the cave very nicely.  I takes up a whole shelf.  It looks like the right size for about 4 Camembert.  I'll plan on using that since my experiment with water in a bowl hasn't increased the humidity much. 

Hande, I really like your system.  I'm not quite ready to step up to a system like that, or to the committment to clean and change the water frequently.  But I might go that route in the future if I find the minicave approach too limiting.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Hande on May 01, 2012, 12:10:17 AM
Caseus, I mean if you like make some parm and ripening it, ->6 - 24 month's you need more air movement and humidity to get real thing.
And what is your humidity system anyway, you need keep it clean, even bowl of water and cloth :)

Hande
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Tomer1 on May 01, 2012, 01:01:07 AM
Long ripening cheeses you need to use vac / wax or humidifier.
I use now ultrasonic + humidity controller [url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8708.0.html[/url] ([url]http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,8708.0.html[/url])

Hande


Do you add bleach to your humidifier when replacing the water or do you clean and wash the whole thing each time?

Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: H-K-J on May 01, 2012, 01:12:09 AM
there are quite a few mini humidifiers at fairly cheep prices, short search brought up this (http://www.sears.com/shc/s/t_10153_12605?tName=personal-portable-humidifier.html),
it doesn't seem like some of them would take up to much room
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on May 01, 2012, 01:16:16 AM
Caseus, I mean if you like make some parm and ripening it, ->6 - 24 month's you need more air movement and humidity to get real thing.
And what is your humidity system anyway, you need keep it clean, even bowl of water and cloth :)

That is true Hande, no matter what you do to add humidity, you have to keep the system clean.  I suspect I will get to the point of adding a humidifier system and air circulation eventually.  From the reading I've done on the forum, it seems that maintaining proper humidity is a far greater challenge than maintaining optimum temperature.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on May 01, 2012, 01:18:19 AM
there are quite a few mini humidifiers at fairly cheep prices, short search brought up this ([url]http://www.sears.com/shc/s/t_10153_12605?tName=personal-portable-humidifier.html[/url]),
it doesn't seem like some of them would take up to much room


There are also cigar humidifers, electronic and passive.  It seems like most have trouble maintaining a humidity level of 90%.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Bear and Bunny cheese on May 28, 2012, 02:49:30 AM
Hi folks,
  Nathan from Montreal here.  This is my first post and am jumping into this thread because it seems closest to my enquiry.
  My post is about setting up a proper cheese cave for my needs.  I wish to upgrade from a very cramped bar fridge with a drippy little freezer, to something larger and better as my cheese production has become more diverse.
  Mozzarellas and ricottas aside, I've made two Cambozolas, a Gouda and a Cheddar.  The two pressed cheeses went off without a hitch and are both in waxy slumber right now.
  The more picky bloomy rinds of the Cambozolas were more difficult to control.  The cheese boxes I chose to age them in were for individual wheels and were much too small. ie. no breathing room and too much condensation buildup.  The P. Candidium grew very well but after a few weeks, the rinds ended up getting grey, slimy sections that were too moist.  In the end the first batch looked a little gross but was delicious.  The second batch spoiled entirely.
  So I'm starting fresh with bigger cheese boxes. and looking for a bigger fridge and better control for humidity and condensation.
  My query applies to long and short term aging of different cheeses side by side; specifically bloomy rinds, waxed, pressed cheeses and non-waxed, pressed cheeses like Gruyere (my next project).
  How much can we rely exclusively on cheese boxes for humidity?  Is there a need for ambient, in-fridge humidity control if cheese boxes are used? 
  I've noticed from some posts on the site that Hande, amongst others, has set up an impressive humidification system with a controller which, I assume, is controlling the entire relative humidity in his cave/fridge.  I am more than ready to do the same, but would like to know if this is necessary for my needs. A bloomy rind and a Gruyere will need a good 90% RH to age (in separate boxes of course), where my waxed cheeses don't need so much.  Would boxes be fine for the high RH cheeses and ambient humidity for long term aging for the Cheddar and Goudas? I expect the changing seasons will make a difference as well.
  If the general consensus is that an ambient humidification system is indeed best I would love to have any updated advice from your experiences on ideas for equipment (fridges, controllers, humidifiers etc.) as well as any tips on setting it all up. 
  Many thanks for your patience and assistance.
Nathan   
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: george on May 28, 2012, 10:40:11 AM
My low-tech non-geeky answer is that my cams, blues, and stinkies all do just fine in their own ripening boxes while everything else just sits in their vacuum bags in the rest of the non-humidity-modified fridge/cave.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: MrsKK on May 29, 2012, 01:52:33 PM
If they are waxed or vac sealed, there's no concern about the humidity because the covering/coating protects the cheese from drying out.  Humidity is a much bigger concern with natural rinds.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Bear and Bunny cheese on May 29, 2012, 05:55:15 PM
Thanks for the replies MrsKK and George,
  Your answers make sense.  I will be making a Gruyere this weekend which will not be waxed.  Would a tupperware style cheese box be sufficient for aging it?  If so, it makes me wonder why the high techs are going through all the trouble with producing and controlling humidity throughout the cave.  Firstly opening the door for a peek would destroy the balance immediately I would think.  Secondly, different cheeses at different ages have different humidity needs so I assume separate cheese boxes, either sealed or ajar etc. would accomplish this much better.
  One last question, when aging different cheeses in the same fridge is there a risk of cross contamination of molds or anythng funky from one kind of cheese to another, especially if they are not in their own private cheese boxes?  Why I ask, my Cambozola that spoiled last month gave a slight odour to my cheddar for a while which worried me to no end.  It is better now so I assume moisture and gases are leaving instead of penetrating the waxed cheese.
Cheers,  Nathan
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Caseus on May 30, 2012, 01:29:01 AM
Thanks for the replies MrsKK and George,
  Your answers make sense.  I will be making a Gruyere this weekend which will not be waxed.  Would a tupperware style cheese box be sufficient for aging it?  If so, it makes me wonder why the high techs are going through all the trouble with producing and controlling humidity throughout the cave.  Firstly opening the door for a peek would destroy the balance immediately I would think.  Secondly, different cheeses at different ages have different humidity needs so I assume separate cheese boxes, either sealed or ajar etc. would accomplish this much better.

It should be sufficient, if you can ensure proper humidity inside the mini-cave (tupperware box).  The trick is, how do you measure the humdity and finagle it to keep it in the right range?  You can guess, which is probably what most people do, or you can out a separate hygrometer, hopefully a fairly accurate one, in each mini-cave.  If you have moisture dripping down the sides of your mini-cave or dripping from the lid onto the cheese, it's too humid.   :)   But below that, how do you know if its humid enough? 

I'm no expert, so I won't pretend to know the answer to that.

  One last question, when aging different cheeses in the same fridge is there a risk of cross contamination of molds or anythng funky from one kind of cheese to another, especially if they are not in their own private cheese boxes?  Why I ask, my Cambozola that spoiled last month gave a slight odour to my cheddar for a while which worried me to no end.  It is better now so I assume moisture and gases are leaving instead of penetrating the waxed cheese.
Cheers,  Nathan

Yes, there is a risk of cross contamination, particularly with blue molds.  Many people keep a separate cave for blues.
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: Boofer on May 30, 2012, 01:41:25 PM
Yes, there is a risk of cross contamination, particularly with blue molds.  Many people keep a separate cave for blues.
Or you could limit what the caves have "active". Right now I have a cave sharing space between a Fourme d'Ambert (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9508.0.html) (blue) and some week-old Reblochons (http://cheeseforum.org/forum/index.php/topic,9720.0.html) (PC/Geo/linens). They are both in their separate minicaves which maintain humidity and help to segregate them from each other.

If I were to consider placing a Gouda or some other cheese intended for a clean rind process in there, I would be taking a chance on a blue Gouda, orange Gouda (linens), or a white Gouda (PC/Geo). IMHO... :)

-Boofer-
Title: Re: My new cave
Post by: dbudge55 on May 30, 2012, 02:29:31 PM
Indeed. I have a lovely orange Gruyere going now that was influenced by a wayward Limburger. I'm hoping I've invented something quite wonderful. But as always, hope springs eternal.